Working in England/ London

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

Oh, come off it - I've had "a few" plays on MTV and nobody's lining up to hire me. Music video is easy to shoot; no matter who you are, there'll be many people better than you.

 

Once "a few" means a few dozen for big name labels all shot on 35, then maybe.

 

Phil

Edited May 11, 2005 by Phil Rhodes

[Matt Pacini]

Of course, there's always the possibility that Phil is actually right about London!

I've known lots of ex-Londoners who feel exactly the same way about the place.

 

Just to correct a few "facts" thrown about here that are in error:

 

Utah is NOWHERE NEAR drivable distance to L.A. If you went about 80 miles an hour and didn't stop, it would be something like a 12+ hour drive.

FUGGETABOUTIT.

Just because Sundance Film Festival is in a small town, doesn't mean there's any film industry there. It's there because that's where Redford likes to ski.

 

As for housing prices in the US "supposedly" being cheap as long as you're not close to L.A. or N.Y., think again.

I'm in Sacramento (425 miles north of, & an 8 hour drive from L.A.) and the median home price here is over $400,000.

I make $38,000 a year.

Do the math.

San Francisco is even higher.

High home prices have nothing to do with if there is film production in a certain town.

You have to be way out in the middle of nowhere, where there are few jobs of ANY type, for housing prices to be reasonable.

 

MP

[Christopher Schneider]

I just moved here, London, from America. I've found the UK film industry to be a tight knit group that seems closed off, but is open to hard working, talented people who give little bull poop.

 

I'm here getting my Master's Degree and have already had to pass on work because of classes. Personally I love London and really hope that I can make a living here after Graduation. But, that said, I'm having to fight to gain acceptance as an American, something I don't mind because I love shooting and I love proving myself.

 

Also, I'm new to the forum, and this is my first post, so hello all.

[Phil Rhodes]

I'd be interested to discover which bit of the "industry" you're talking about there - if you're jumping for joy because you've been here three months and done a couple of Shooting People freebies, believe me, that's as good as it's ever going to get unless you are spectacularly lucky.

 

I find it difficult to understand how you would find it difficult to "gain acceptance as an American". Usually exactly the opposite will be the case because you will be perceived to be from a place where filmmaking is a huge business and therefore liable to be much more experienced.

 

Anyway, just wait until you've suffered through one of our lovely ten-month periods of mushed-together autumn/winter/spring, which really means two thirds of the year are plagued by soul-crushing overcast, freezing cold and pouring rain. Then you will know misery.

 

P

[Christopher Schneider]

That's fair Phil. And no, I was offered good money on reshoots for a feature, dolly gripping, not shooting. But, again, I've got classes. Master's Degree here I come.

 

I don't mind the rain, so far, but I could see myself becoming bitter because of it.

 

As for the acceptance thing, I should have been more clear. I have a strong desire to work in England, that might seem odd to you, and that's what I've had trouble overcoming. The Brits I've met either take to it immediately OR they find it odd that an American, with Hollywood and New York at my disposal would chose to come here. That's the hurddle I've met. But other than that, I've really found the people of London to be pretty warm.

[Jon Kukla]

 

I'm an American who has been living in London working the film industry as a camera assistant for over three years now. I started with zero contacts and zero experience, and have worked on everything from student shoots to Hollywood studio features at Pinewood. You can believe Phil's generalizations about an entire industry filled with people, most of whom he doesn't know, or you can believe my specific experience as just one of many stories.

 

It is not difficult at all if you are willing to do the groundwork and give time for things to snowball. The winter season is always slow as well, so you need to prepare for zero work between mid December and now. But usually stuff does come around anyway. Yes, I put in my name for a lot of jobs that I don't get, but who cares? I'm always busy, I can pay my rent and food, and I'm happy here. It's not about your batting average; similarly, why should I care how many other people were considered for my job on any given gig? It's a healthy industry that has a larger pool of talented technicians than jobs - that's what you want in any given market, and that is how the machine keeps running. The trick is to get your ins, whether that's a few dailies or second unit work, or freebies. You aren't condemned to Phil's fate anymore than you are to mine, so make your own assessments, goals, and decisions.

 

Unfortunately I will be leaving the UK film industry in a few months myself, but not by choice; immigration has tightened visa qualifications well beyond my original options. Personally I'd be happy staying in London indefinitely; yeah, a lot of Brits think I'm crazy too for working here instead of Stateside, but that's a personal preference for life here. While I could stay here for at least another year, I don't see the point when I can be using that time to build the US contacts I'll need to make anyway when I return. Frankly, I believe that it's going to be much harder for me to break LA than London, but I've already started to get an idea of the lay of the land, so to say, and I have some promising places to start. Plus everyone there has a high opinion of UK techs (so I'm told).

 

I'll leave you with two quotes (the first from the BSC, the second from a film)

 

"There are many pathways. Anything is possible, but you must have serious ambition, be relentless in your pursuit of it, obviously have the talent, and never become disheartened by the ups and downs of the business." (emphasis mine)

 

"It's supposed to be hard. If it were easy everyone would do it. It's the 'hard' that makes it great."

[Stephen Press]

Just a few things. I worked in the UK from 1996 to 2000 and am only just coming to terms with being back in New Zealand now. In London the work was better, the pay was better. I got more respect as a craftsman and even the weather was better. It took me three weeks after I arrived to get a 4 month gig. Yes there was some friction with a BBC cameraman who wanted to punch me out for stealing work from Bits, he thought I was Australian, yes there were adjustment I needed to make like waiting 7 months to be paid but on the whole working in London was like having a holiday with half my normal workload at three times the pay.

If coming back to NZ hadn?t crippled me financially and I could just get ahead here I would be on the plane to London tomorrow.

[Guest]

Gee John and Stephen you make the London area sound great!

 

I have a UK passport maybe I should head back?

 

With my American accent I can't wait to walk around sets and say things like, "well in America we have one of those only it's much bigger and much better. " :) Oh the English love that! Best yet no matter how many times they call UK immigration they can't get me deported!!

 

Actually I just got back from the Bahamas and if I was single I would seriously be on the next plane back! Since my business is 100% web based I could easily run it from there. For post transfers I'd hop on a plane to Miami 20 mins away!! Less travel time than I have now, it takes me 90 mins to drive to a post house.

 

No taxes of any kind in the Bahamas and no freaking winter!!

 

Even if I worked in the USA one day, I'd be taxed into oblivion.

 

R,

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

> With my American accent I can't wait to walk around sets and say things like, "well in America we have one

> of those only it's much bigger and much better. " smile.gif Oh the English love that!

 

We might not love it, but we know it's almost always true.

 

Phil

[David Bradley]

this all got a little off topic don't you think.

 

England is as good a place as any within the EU. Most major productions here are funded or are part of larger Hollywood productions. For instance, Studios such as Ealing and Pinewood were used for star wars. As a result most of the senior staff on big budget productions are based abroad i.e. the US. There is however work for camera operators and assistants but only well connected ones.

 

Personally whilst I study I have settled at ITN (televised news). A large portion of the UK film industry (and it isn't huge) is dominated by production for TV be it Live studio, drama or documentary. Only about one BBC production a year is shot on 35mm, there is a tendency to shoot 16mm or Digital beta. Having said that the BBC have some of the best DPs and operators in the world and provide its employees with a solid career path aimed at developing its staffs skills and interests (part of its educational philosophy).

 

Being in Europe if you do get involved in a very European stylised production i.e. British Social realism, you will learn a niche style of film making whose practices may not translate well into a Hollywood model should you choose to work in the states.

 

In my personal experience those with the most work in the UK are operators with a specialism i.e. Pole cam, Jimmy Jib, Steadicam etc. Producers using British Studios due to cost are likely to use their own crews but often call on local specialists with access to their own gear.

 

Good Luck

[Adam Frisch FSF]

David, I disagree.

 

Most major US-funded films shot here (and that's many) use British crew. I work with gaffers, grips and AC's that go from one big Hollywood production to another. Certainly some key positions like Production Designer, DP and whatnot might be Americans, but the majority of the crew is British.

 

Also, although London is expensive to shoot in (and live in), it's still got a healthy amount of big productions going on at any time. Just take a random number of "big" films and you'll probably find that most of them have some sort of connection to London - either shot here or the production was based here. Therefore, London IS the film capital of Europe any way you slice it, no doubt about that.

 

So one has to make a decision - if you want to fight for a career where it's hard to reach the top, but when you do, you've really reached the TOP - or - get big in a smaller film community where you might become a big fish in a small pond? It's an age old question for which there is no simple answer. For me personally, my philosphy has always been that the amount of work I put in into my career is the same wheather I do it here in London or in Mongolia - it's just as hard. So why not do it somehwere where I can get to play with the big boys and the big toys someday?

[Jon Kukla]

Well said, Adam!

 

If you have any doubts that the camera crews, from operators down to trainees, use UK techs, then feel free to peruse the CVs of any of the people on Arricrew, Wizzo, or Suz Cruz, to name just a few diary services.

 

(Speaking of which, if the Local 600 doesn't help people find work, why doesn't NY or LA have diary services set up?)

Edited February 25, 2007 by Jon Kukla

[Max Jacoby]

It's been fairly common for Hollywood films to even use British Dops and Production Designers, like on the Star Wars, James Bond and Harry Potter films.

[Phil Rhodes]

> England is as good a place as any within the EU.

 

That is not a compliment.

 

Nor would it be helpful if it were. The only country in the EU which does not routinely ensure people have a working knowledge of several EU languages is the UK. The freedom to work anywhere within the organisation helps more or less everyone except the UK. I have, for example, the option to go and work in Bulgaria. Can't wait. Even if I did speak the language, it's a complete waste of time.

 

> Personally whilst I study I have settled at ITN (televised news).

 

Something I'd love to do, but never really had any leads.

 

 

> Having said that the BBC have some of the best DPs and operators in the world

 

I don't see that. I see a lot of video-shot junk like Eastenders and Casualty. Unwatchable.

 

> and provide its employees with a solid career path

 

It most certainly does not. What it does is employ people with very rich parents who've bought them a flat in Chelsea, pays them minimum wage, and makes them work as a runner for four years. Only at that point are you "in". Working for the BBC, which I've only done extremely rarely (for these reasons), is like working for a 1930s radio station. Oh, hang on, it -is- a 1930s radio station and hasn't updated its attitudes since the second world war. These people are responsible for completely unwatchable garbage like Torchwood. How can you possibly defend them?

 

> aimed at developing its staffs skills and interests (part of its educational philosophy).

 

Christ, who are you, director general? It, like any other UK production company, aims to exploit and underpay its staff as much as possible. This is neither unusual nor surprising. You must occupy a very lofty position in the BBC for any of this to be true.

 

> you choose to work in the states.

 

Choose? When does that choice come up?

 

> In my personal experience those with the most work in the UK are operators with a specialism i.e. Pole

> cam, Jimmy Jib, Steadicam etc.

 

This is certainly true although there are a very wide range of skill levels to be seen. I am an extremely average Steadicam operator but I frequently see work on UK terrestrial broadcast that I would be embarrassed to be credited for. I think this is more about a desperate, grasping needs to use the Hollywood toys than it is to do anything useful with them. It's pathetic - we ape the US, but fall so far short.

 

Phil

[Max Jacoby]

Something I'd love to do, but never really had any leads.

> Having said that the BBC have some of the best DPs and operators in the world

 

I don't see that. I see a lot of video-shot junk like Eastenders and Casualty. Unwatchable.

Considering that 4 of the last 20 Oscar winners for cinematography hail from the UK I don't see your point. And I thought you didn't watch tv anymore, because you didn't want to pay for a tv license anymore. Have you been cheating, Phil?

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

> Considering that 4 of the last 20 Oscar winners for cinematography hail from the UK

 

Oh really. And how many of these awards were won for UK productions, funded in the UK, by UK companies? Oh yes, that would be precisely none.

 

I think this illustrates my point more perfectly than any other - the sign of success in the UK is to have left.

 

Phil

[Stephen Press]

Phil most of the issues you have with the UK industry are problems we face world wide. Instead of getting hung up on the problems you need to look for solutions (happy calendar message for the week.)

You complain there is no career path then dis Eastenders and Torchwood? get over yourself mate. They may not be art but they are a step on the ladder. Look at all the mega careers that were launched working on fluff like the original Dr Who. Careers don?t happen by themselves overnight.

 

To me London was a place with massive amounts of opportunities and more work than I could wish for. In my time freelancing there I was never out of work for more than a week, I wish I could say the same in New Zealand.

As for the cost of living because I was paid so much better in the UK I was spending a smaller proportion of my take home pay on living so it was in affect cheaper to live in London than Wellington New Zealand.

Don?t even start on your fantastic heath system compared to here, I live in fear of getting sick. People have started to take medical holidays to Singapore. Airfares, operation, a week recovery and a higher success rate all for less than a third of what it would cost in NZ.

Everywhere has problems. You have to make sure your attitude is not a large part of them (happy calendar message for next week.)

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

> ... Eastenders and Torchwood ... may not be art but they are a step on the ladder.

 

You're kidding. They are the very top of the ladder, the absolute pinnacle of many careers. And yes, that's as good as it gets. Dismal, isn't it?

 

Phil

[Stephen Press]

Jesus Phil, I hope the nurses on your ward running your suicide watch remembered to take you shoelaces.

Edited February 25, 2007 by Stephen Press

[Matthew Buick]

If that's as good as it get's currently in th UK then Sacred Mushroom and it's succesors will all be in a league of their own. :D

[Matthew Buick]

Jesus Phil, I hope the nurses on your ward running your suicide watch remembered to take you shoelaces.

 

DON'T JOKE ABOUT THOSE THINGS!!!!! :angry:

[Stephen Press]

I have to confess that as far as my wife is concerned the two days Steadicam I spent on Coronation street is the highlight of my career so far.

[Stephen Press]

DON'T JOKE ABOUT THOSE THINGS!!!!! :angry:

 

Why not?

My comment was meant to be specifically taken as a light hearted response to Phil?s overly dramatic prostrations of a dismal life in London. It?s not that bad.

As for Phil. A guy with over 4639 posts is not going to top himself because somebody disagreed with him or made a joke.

Edited February 25, 2007 by Stephen Press

[Phil Rhodes]

Life?

 

Don't talk to me about life.

 

Yes it bloody is that bad. It's probably not quite so bad if you happened to trip over £50,000 on a street corner one day and bought a Steadicam.

 

I have in the past been asked to watch someone else for signs of suicidal intent. Believe me, I'm nowhere near. I am, however, realistic about this country and the opportunities it doesn't offer.

 

Phil

[Stephen Press]

Yeah and here?s you with a brain the size of a planet? :D

I didn?t trip over a stack of cash to get my rig I went to the bank with a business model, got told ?We?ve had a lot of problems with people like you? foreigners.? Said thank you to the bank with a black horse on it and went to another bank. Got some money then hired my rig out at a silly rate on a long term gig to get enough experience flying it.

Now back in Wellington NZ the only people who want it can?t pay for it and the ones who can pay import the operators down from Auckland, sound familiar?

At lest in London there were doors to knock on? beat on? kick in.