Asynchron Filmtransport / Sutter runing

[Philipp Kunzli]

Hey Everybody

 

I'm in preproduction for a short film, which is planed to be shoot on the Arri 416.

As I remember there is the possibility (at least on the 435) to offset the Filmtransport. Meaning that the shutter is running a-sync to the film transport. The outcome are "smeering highlights" from the Filmtransport.

 

As I recall to remember one needs an additional control device, but I'm not sure.

 

How was this technic called again?

But much more important, is it possible to do this "trick" on a 416,

or any ideas how achieve that look?

 

Unfortunately didn't find anything in the manual...

 

THX for your support and Ideas

 

Philipp

Edited December 10, 2015 by Philipp Kunzli

[Kenny N Suleimanagich]

As far as I know the closest you can get to this is opening up the shutter angle. I don't think there's much else you could do. The movement is the same as that in the SR3, for what it's worth. I don't think that camera can do this, either.

Edited December 10, 2015 by Kenny N Suleimanagich

[Bill DiPietra]

Hey Everybody

 

I'm in preproduction for a short film, which is planed to be shoot on the Arri 416.

As I remember there is the possibility (at least on the 435) to offset the Filmtransport. Meaning that the shutter is running a-sync to the film transport.

 

I'm not familiar with either camera, but wouldn't this also decrease (at the very least) your exposure time for each frame?

[Kenny N Suleimanagich]

I also don't think this is something the 435 is designed to do - likely an error that can happen with a movement that depends on coplanar magazines and a larger loop. I'm sure others can chime in on this.

 

You would get shutter smearing if you opened up the shutter angle severely - a notable example of this are scenes in "Saving Private Ryan".

[Bill DiPietra]

You would get shutter smearing if you opened up the shutter angle severely - a notable example of this are scenes in "Saving Private Ryan".

 

And didn't Kaminski physically scratch the shutter to obtain that effect?

[Charlie Peich]

Hello Phillipp!

 

You are looking for the Arri Timing Shift Box. This 'box' was primarily for 35mm cameras, 435 Advanced, 435 Xtreme and the ArriCams. The nice thing with this box, you can adjust the amount of streaking while shooting.

 

 

A description from an ArriCam brochure.

 

Timing Shift Box (TSB)

The Timing Shift Box adjusts the phase relationship of the mirror shutter to the movement. The result is that the film is exposed while being trans- ported, which creates a streaking effect. A unique feature of the Timing Shift Box is the Jitter function. It introduces a random fluctuation in the timing shift, resulting in a fluctuation of the length of the streak.

Compatibility: This box attaches directly to the Studio camera or the Remote Control Station, and can be connected to the Studio or Lite camera with the MCB Cable Adapter and the Speed Control Box Remote Cable KC-65 (3m/9ft) or KC-69 (15m/45ft), with or without the 50m/150ft Cable Drum KC-73.

The Timing Shift Box has to be removed to attach or remove the Speed Control Box from the Studio camera. If a magazine is attached in back load position to the Studio camera, the magazine has to be removed before the Timing Shift Box can be attached or removed.

Timing Shift Box, Manual Control Box and Speed Control Box can be used simultaneously.

K2.54171.0 Timing Shift Box

 

page 32.

http://www.arrirental.com/pdf/arricam_systemguide.pdf

 

 

ARRI Time Shift Box

The Time Shifting Box is 435 Xtreme compatible accessory that alters the phase relationship of the mirror shutter to the movement, so that the film is exposed while being transported. Creating vertical streaking effects that can be adjusted from very faint to very strong, and the amount of jitter, a random fluctuation in the strength of the effect, can also be set to various degrees.

http://www.aoassocies.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/arri_435_EXTREME_configuration_overview_en.pdf (Upper right side of chart)

However, in this configuration chart of the last generation of Arri film cameras, it doesn't show the box in the 416 camera configurations. :( That is because the 416 shutter isn't an electronically controlled/adjustable variable shutter like in the 35mm cameras. You would have to have a tech physically un-time the shutter to get a streaking effect when shooting 16mm. Then you'd have 2 camera bodies.

http://www.musitelli.com/site/files/ARRI_Camera_Configuration_Overview.pdf

 

Shoot 35mm for the effects, or the entire film.

Charlie

 

 

[Gregg MacPherson]

You would get shutter smearing if you opened up the shutter angle severely - a notable example of this are scenes in "Saving Private Ryan".

 

Do you know what the shutter angle was, what camera, which scenes?

 

I remember that devastating beach landing with what looked, from memory, like a reduced shutter angle. Moving objects being un-naturally sharp for the cinema.

[Jeff L'Heureux]

The Omaha beach scene in Saving Private Ryan was more like a 45 degree shutter and unnaturally sharp, with little to no motion blur mostly.

 

The smear effect you want would be something more like the end portion of the first battle scene in Gladiator. That was achieved by undercranking the camera (not sure what frame rate, maybe 12fps) panning around wildly during the shot for smear and then double printing the frames. Still using a 180 degree shutter though. I believe Ridley Scott mentions it on the commentary.

 

Here it is at 5:30

 

[Gregg MacPherson]

Jeff, the studio blocked us from seeing that in NZ.

[Jeff L'Heureux]

Ahh, well, at any rate, that effect is in Gladiator. Should be easy enough to get a hold of for an example of the look. Rent it on iTunes perhaps.

[Dom Jaeger]

Charlie's answer regarding the Timing Shift Box is spot on, a technician would need to physically offset the shutter timing on a 416 to get the same effect because it uses a mechanical shutter drive rather than the electrical one used in late 435s and Arricams. It's not all that hard to do, but you'd need to send it back to a tech to set it back to normal, or have 2 bodies.

 

On Private Ryan Kaminski had one camera body with an offset shutter timing, to recreate the effect sometimes seen in WW2 footage where the force of a nearby explosion would momentarily throw the film transport and shutter out of sync and cause highlights to smear vertically (a technique that had been used earlier in Kubrick's Full Metal Jacket). On other shots he used 45 and 90 degree shutter angles to get that crisp, staccato motion. I'm not sure if there was some undercranking utilised as well. Here's an excerpt from an ASC article about it:

https://www.theasc.com/magazine/aug98/saving/pg3.htm

 

It mentions that the timing offset was masked when the shutter angle was reduced to 90 or 45 degrees, so the offset camera body could be used along with the normal bodies for those shots.

So that's possibly another option with the 416, depending on the amount of timing offset a technician introduces, the smearing effect could be removed on set by reducing the shutter angle.

[Gregg MacPherson]

https://www.theasc.com/magazine/aug98/saving/pg3.htm

 

 

Lots of great stuff in that article thanks.

[Charlie Peich]

Hello Dom!

 

Thank you for the kind words!

 

I believe the effect Phillipp was asking about is called 'streaking'. Here's a frame from Saving Private Ryan showing an example of streaking, one of the many in camera effects used in the opening. Created by an out of sync shutter, the hot spots streaking as the film is advanced. This effect can be achieved at any frame rate. You won't see this effect through the reflex viewfinder, only when the film is processed.

 

 

 

Charlie

[Simon Wyss]

Travel ghost

 

Blendenziehen in German. Philipp, wir können uns auf Deutsch unterhalten, wenn du willst.

[Philipp Kunzli]

Hello Phillipp!

 

You are looking for the Arri Timing Shift Box. This 'box' was primarily for 35mm cameras, 435 Advanced, 435 Xtreme and the ArriCams. The nice thing with this box, you can adjust the amount of streaking while shooting.

 

 

A description from an ArriCam brochure.

 

Timing Shift Box (TSB)

The Timing Shift Box adjusts the phase relationship of the mirror shutter to the movement. The result is that the film is exposed while being trans- ported, which creates a streaking effect. A unique feature of the Timing Shift Box is the Jitter function. It introduces a random fluctuation in the timing shift, resulting in a fluctuation of the length of the streak.

Compatibility: This box attaches directly to the Studio camera or the Remote Control Station, and can be connected to the Studio or Lite camera with the MCB Cable Adapter and the Speed Control Box Remote Cable KC-65 (3m/9ft) or KC-69 (15m/45ft), with or without the 50m/150ft Cable Drum KC-73.

The Timing Shift Box has to be removed to attach or remove the Speed Control Box from the Studio camera. If a magazine is attached in back load position to the Studio camera, the magazine has to be removed before the Timing Shift Box can be attached or removed.

Timing Shift Box, Manual Control Box and Speed Control Box can be used simultaneously.

K2.54171.0 Timing Shift Box

 

page 32.

http://www.arrirental.com/pdf/arricam_systemguide.pdf

 

 

ARRI Time Shift Box

The Time Shifting Box is 435 Xtreme compatible accessory that alters the phase relationship of the mirror shutter to the movement, so that the film is exposed while being transported. Creating vertical streaking effects that can be adjusted from very faint to very strong, and the amount of jitter, a random fluctuation in the strength of the effect, can also be set to various degrees.

http://www.aoassocies.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/arri_435_EXTREME_configuration_overview_en.pdf (Upper right side of chart)

However, in this configuration chart of the last generation of Arri film cameras, it doesn't show the box in the 416 camera configurations. :( That is because the 416 shutter isn't an electronically controlled/adjustable variable shutter like in the 35mm cameras. You would have to have a tech physically un-time the shutter to get a streaking effect when shooting 16mm. Then you'd have 2 camera bodies.

http://www.musitelli.com/site/files/ARRI_Camera_Configuration_Overview.pdf

 

Shoot 35mm for the effects, or the entire film.

Charlie

 

 

Thanks a lot. It's exactly what I was looking for! Perfect

Unfortunately my "feeling" was right that It doesn't work on the 416...

[Philipp Kunzli]

Travel ghost

 

Blendenziehen in German. Philipp, wir können uns auf Deutsch unterhalten, wenn du willst.

Hallo Simon.

 

Immer wieder schön auch mal auf Deutsch nachfragen zu können.

Wie Charie Pech geschrieben hat ist funktioniert es auf der 35er mit der Timeshift box welche anscheinend nicht mit der 416er korrespondiert...

 

Vielleicht hast du ja aber noch eine andere Idee?

 

Vielen Dank.

Philipp

[Philipp Kunzli]

Hello Dom!

 

Thank you for the kind words!

 

I believe the effect Phillipp was asking about is called 'streaking'. Here's a frame from Saving Private Ryan showing an example of streaking, one of the many in camera effects used in the opening. Created by an out of sync shutter, the hot spots streaking as the film is advanced. This effect can be achieved at any frame rate. You won't see this effect through the reflex viewfinder, only when the film is processed.

 

 

 

Charlie

 

Spot on! ;-)

[Simon Wyss]

Philipp, let’s keep writing in English, this is an English spoken forum.

 

We can further communicate auf Deutsch via personal message system.

 

To subject, what are you expecting from a technical error as an effect? Since 1888 all camera builders took care to avoid travel ghost, repair people, projectionists. I’m having quite some trouble imagining what an audience should understand by streaking highlights. Streakers I know from the 1970s.

[Bill DiPietra]

I’m having quite some trouble imagining what an audience should understand by streaking highlights.

 

Totally agree. I never really got the thematic significance of that effect in Saving Private Ryan. As much as I like the film, it felt like it was a neat visual technique that wasn't really rooted in any kind of subtext.

[Gregg MacPherson]

Here's a frame from Saving Private Ryan showing an example of streaking, one of the many in camera effects used in the opening.

 

 

Hey Charlie, Do you know where in time that frame is in the film? I'd like to look closely at that at 24fps. Just watched Private Ryan yesterday after reading this topic, but I wasn't thinking about these effect.

 

Or anyone else?

Edited December 11, 2015 by Gregg MacPherson

[Charlie Peich]

Hi Gregg...

 

I don't have the exact time where that shot is located. I don't have a copy of the film. I had googled S.P.R. looking for 'effects' pics from the opening sequence. A page came up with a bunch of frame grabs, and that was one of the dozens or so pics in the search results. So, you'll have to watch the opening sequence again!

 

 

Ok, I found the site where that frame grab came from. Read, or scroll down to the bottom of the page. There is a story about the 'streaking' effect under the pic. Interesting site.

 

 

 

http://www.malcontent.com/done-with-flare/

 

 

 

 

Charlie

[Mark Dunn]

Hi Gregg...

 

I don't have the exact time where that shot is located. I don't have a copy of the film. I had googled S.P.R. looking for 'effects' pics from the opening sequence. A page came up with a bunch of frame grabs, and that was one of the dozens or so pics in the search results. So, you'll have to watch the opening sequence again!

 

 

Ok, I found the site where that frame grab came from. Read, or scroll down to the bottom of the page. There is a story about the 'streaking' effect under the pic. Interesting site.

 

 

 

http://www.malcontent.com/done-with-flare/

 

 

 

 

Charlie

That person thinks the effect is lens flare. He also can't tell the difference between flare and diffraction.

[Gregg MacPherson]

That person thinks the effect is lens flare. He also can't tell the difference between flare and diffraction.

 

I gave him a pass. He at least points to or gives references in the general direction of some profound concepts at the start of that page. A frame of film being an imprint of the real at a moment of time (Me: rather than a composited photon count from a digital sensor attempting to inform a film simulation). If the divine or the profound qualities are existent in everything and expressed in visible form, surfaces, then the most simple photographic record can embody that. I want to say, "encode" that, but the popular misuse of that word is just too.....ruinous to what it should mean.

[Gregg MacPherson]

 

... I never really got the thematic significance of that effect in Saving Private Ryan. As much as I like the film, it felt like it was a neat visual technique that wasn't really rooted in any kind of subtext.

 

In this great film where personal experience of battle is intimately shown, the big ideas are there, life, death, transcendence, sudden liberation of the spirit from the body. These smear effects in camera, for me, in quite a direct experiential way, express the instability and uncertainty of where one will exist in the next moment. It's a very gutsy, viscerial thing actually. So is this part of theme or subtext (just humouring Bill).

 

EDIT: Realizing I never said enough. The smears I am particularly pointing to are the fires and the face on the lower left that comes up shortly after this frame.

 

Privately, I'm quite mean to Spielburg, thinking of him as a great technician, artisan storyteller, rather than as an artist. But I think that Spielburg, rolling those frames back and forth, over and over, had the same feeling as me. There is art in there. Uncertainty, profundity, depth of seeing, and play.

Edited December 11, 2015 by Gregg MacPherson