Jérôme Lafforgue Posted April 30, 2016 Share Posted April 30, 2016 Hi, I'm not really well versed in the film/tv Industry I work more in the marketing side of digital media etc. However I often shoot a lot of video (but mostly stills) mostly for small corp jobs etc usually just for the web. I was recently ask to help out of a small project to make a TV pilot. An old friend whom I trust is the production manager. I was asked to bring video equipment ect and act as DOP for a small fee (mates rates) to help them get it off the ground and to be honest it was good experience as I have never worked on anything like this before. Firstly yes I stupidly walked in with no contracts and really no idea how these things work. Lesson learned there. Being done as more as of a favor for a friend I really didnt even think about the contract side of things TBH. The production has received all copies of the files as well as 100s of images (BTS etc). I have retained copies of everything as well. At this point its looking like the client will not pay. My question is with no contracts and no payment do I have any rights at all to use the footage that I have copies of or even the right to request that they not use it until its paid for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Drysdale Posted April 30, 2016 Share Posted April 30, 2016 You'd need to check Austrialian copyright law, but in theory you hold the copyright for the framing, since you haven't been paid under a worker for hire agreement and you haven't assigned.the copyright through a contract. However, enforcing that may be another matter and may depend on how much you value your friendship.Having handed over the files weakens your position, so you may end up having to pester the client directly with certain amount of bluff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin R Probyn Posted April 30, 2016 Share Posted April 30, 2016 Sorry to tell you that you,ll probably have to chalk it up to experience .. like probably every camera person on this forum I,ve also been stiffed on a shoot.. ownership of video footage anyway, seems to be not very straight forward compared to stills.. and even if you have the copyright in Australia ..your legal fee,s will be more than your payment and drag on for months/years.. its worth hassling to some degree.. but these people usually had no intention of paying you in the first place.. and know the law is on their side more than yours.. the anger does wear off after a while :)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD Hartman Posted April 30, 2016 Share Posted April 30, 2016 You may be in the legal right, however in these situations you probably don't have the money and time to enforce those rights in court. Especially since you have nothing in writing. Why did you turn over any images or media before being paid? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Mark Kenfield Posted April 30, 2016 Premium Member Share Posted April 30, 2016 The footage you've shot (but not been paid for) remains your intellectual property, however (odds are) the content captured in that footage remains the intellectual property of the creators. This is a bit a weird no-man's-land copyright wise. You can certainly use the footage for your showreel (as promotional material for yourself), but not in any commercial manner (as you don't own the copyright to the content itself). This is really only safe copyright wise if you're simply cutting from clip to clip to show off the cinematography - that would basically fall under 'fair use', letting the scenes play out (and therefore showcasing the creators' intellectual property is a no-no. If you refuse the production the right to use your footage until you've been paid for it. You're totally within your rights (as copyright protects you in that circumstance). As to enforcing that though, well that'll be up to you (lodging copyright claims on youtube/vimeo etc. if they upload it online). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 30, 2016 Share Posted April 30, 2016 Well as usual...we need a lawyer on this forum, same as we need an expert in US immigration law :) R, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Satsuki Murashige Posted April 30, 2016 Premium Member Share Posted April 30, 2016 Why did you turn over any images or media before being paid? That's pretty normal though, right? You invoice after the job is done or fill out a time card and then you hope to get paid in 30 days. Luckily, I haven't been burned too often, but usually 1-3 jobs a year end up not paying after the work is done. Usually, I'm too busy to even notice until it's way too late. The only good thing is that if this happens to a big crew, then you can all band together to pressure the production company. In that case, you probably want the oldest grumpiest key grip on your side as most of 'em are pretty badass pipe hittin' mofos when pissed off. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Landon D. Parks Posted April 30, 2016 Share Posted April 30, 2016 (edited) Chances are, if you done the work under a contract - then the contract should stipulate who owns the material. The reality is, even if you're not paid the money agreed upon, it's likely the work is still the property of the person who contracted you to create it. You could refuse to give it to them if you haven't already, and then they'd have to take you to court. Likely the court would still require you to turn over the material to them, though they would be forced to pay the contracted amount. If they fail to pay it, there are avenues such as liens and such that can be used to get the money agreed upon. Alternatively, if you already gave it to them, then you'd need to file a lawsuit for breach of contract. The court will demand they pay you. If they don't you can pursue liens and garnishments against them to recover your due. Edited April 30, 2016 by Landon D. Parks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Bill DiPietra Posted April 30, 2016 Premium Member Share Posted April 30, 2016 I agree with Robin. Definitely make an issue to get paid, but also take it as a learning experience. Always get something on paper (and make sure you retain a copy of it) before you shoot a frame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD Hartman Posted April 30, 2016 Share Posted April 30, 2016 That's pretty normal though, right? You invoice after the job is done or fill out a time card and then you hope to get paid in 30 days. Luckily, I haven't been burned too often, but usually 1-3 jobs a year end up not paying after the work is done. Usually, I'm too busy to even notice until it's way too late. The only good thing is that if this happens to a big crew, then you can all band together to pressure the production company. In that case, you probably want the oldest grumpiest key grip on your side as most of 'em are pretty badass pipe hittin' mofos when pissed off. :) Yes, on a "real" shoot. This didn't sound like one from the get-go. Better to work for clients than friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin R Probyn Posted May 1, 2016 Share Posted May 1, 2016 Yes agree.. you will get a "nose" for the dodgy outfits.. and require payment before handing over rushes.. that was my main job as a loader in the 80,s on music video,s.. literally I had to hide the film cans on set,or lock in my car.. but the largest amount I got stuffed was from a big company that had been around for years.. but went bankrupt/was already when I was hired for a shoot !.. Its going to happen a couple of times in anyones career.. hopefully this is one of the few for you.. for longer shoots its a good idea to get paid installments during the shoot.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 1, 2016 Share Posted May 1, 2016 Landon gave us his expert advice, now where is Tyler with his law degree to give an opposing viewpoint? R, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD Hartman Posted May 1, 2016 Share Posted May 1, 2016 Landon gave us his expert advice, now where is Tyler with his law degree to give an opposing viewpoint? R, Was that really necessary? If anyone thinks that a degree in Business is the same as attending law school, it's that Ohio guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Landon D. Parks Posted May 1, 2016 Share Posted May 1, 2016 (edited) You can make fun all you want, but the truth is I do know what I'm talking about. Perhaps that makes people mad, I don't really know... In fact, one really does not need a degree in anything to understands the basic concepts of court - such as 'if you violate my contract, I can sue you'. Just figured someone might like a more 'legal' opinion than just 'Chalk it up to experience and move on', since maybe he might actually like to re-claim that money he is due - and he is perfectly legally within his right to do so. There is no legal question about rather one can sue in this case, nor is there a question about rather he could attach liens or garnish wages and/or corporate income. Any first year law student can tell you that much (Hell, even most business students are taught that), and does not require one have a degree in anything - let alone be a lawyer. Am I an expert? No. I have sued people before in the past, and I have been sued. So, I know what I'm talking about. If I was the original poster, I'd take my $100 down to the court house and file at least a small claims case against the producer - might be able to recoup up to $5,000 of it (jurisdiction dependent). Don't even need a lawyer for that. Producer don't have $5,000? Does he have a house? Attach a lien and watch how quick the money comes to you. Anyone want to argue with that advice? If so, I'd really like to hear a better comeback than 'Just chalk it up to experience'. If everyone in the business world chalked everything up to experience, we'd all be broke. And yes, I know... 'Filmmaking is art, man.... Not business...' Edited May 1, 2016 by Landon D. Parks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Satsuki Murashige Posted May 1, 2016 Premium Member Share Posted May 1, 2016 Was that really necessary? If anyone thinks that a degree in Business is the same as attending law school, it's that Ohio guy. Can we all please stop with the personal attacks?? Jesus. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 1, 2016 Share Posted May 1, 2016 You can make fun all you want, but the truth is I do know what I'm talking about. Perhaps that makes people mad, I don't really know... In fact, one really does not need a degree in anything to understands the basic concepts of court - How are you not a billionaire by now? R, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 1, 2016 Share Posted May 1, 2016 If I was the original poster, I'd take my $100 down to the court house and file at least a small claims case against the producer - might be able to recoup up to $5,000 of it (jurisdiction dependent). Don't even need a lawyer for that. Producer don't have $5,000? Does he have a house? Attach a lien and watch how quick the money comes to you. Well for starters, in addition to being a leading US legal expert, are you also an expert in Australian law as well? Or are you assuming that the Australian legal system works the same as the US system does? R, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 1, 2016 Share Posted May 1, 2016 Was that really necessary? If anyone thinks that a degree in Business is the same as attending law school, it's that Ohio guy. Yes actually, and I can't wait for Tyler to chime in with his expertise on Australian law. :) R, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Bill DiPietra Posted May 1, 2016 Premium Member Share Posted May 1, 2016 Am I an expert? No. I have sued people before in the past, and I have been sued. So, I know what I'm talking about. If I was the original poster, I'd take my $100 down to the court house and file at least a small claims case against the producer - might be able to recoup up to $5,000 of it (jurisdiction dependent). Don't even need a lawyer for that. Producer don't have $5,000? Does he have a house? Attach a lien and watch how quick the money comes to you. Anyone want to argue with that advice? Yes... Anyone can head down to court and do what you suggested, but things are rarely as black & white as you make them out to be. It's not all dollars and cents. If the sum total is a decent amount of money, sure - you sue (which should be the last, not the first resort) if they refuse to release your funds. But if it's some measly amount, then yes, you may indeed decide to chalk it all up to experience. For example, who knows who else was on that shoot that may have some real connections that you could use in the future? It could be that that person was also doing the producer "a favor" for the day. Then you decide to sue for whatever your day-rate was and the word gets around about that. Definitely not the kind of reputation you want to start out with. There are tons of politics involved, so yes - you weigh everything carefully. And yes, I know... 'Filmmaking is art, man.... Not business...' Actually, it's supposed to be both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Landon D. Parks Posted May 1, 2016 Share Posted May 1, 2016 Well for starters, in addition to being a leading US legal expert, are you also an expert in Australian law as well? Or are you assuming that the Australian legal system works the same as the US system does? R, Most English-speaking countries follow a very similar common-law approach pioneer by England. Australia HAS small claims courts just like we do in the states. The procedures to bring a case are almost identical as they are in many US States. Of course in Australia, each province is governed by it's own small claims laws and courts, much like US States - so without knowing his province it's not possible to give EXACT information. I can point him to an example though, which is probably similar across most of Australia: http://www.magistratescourt.wa.gov.au/C/civil_matters.aspx?uid=1226-6994-1097-9582 That link points out that a civil case can be filed without an an attorney in Western Australia with a small fee payable online by credit card, and also by completing an online claims form. You see, one of the great things about a degree in business is that it does now necessarily mean we know every law in existence... What it does gives us though is the power to research and understand the laws as they apply. It literally took me 5 minutes to come up with these results. No degree required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Landon D. Parks Posted May 1, 2016 Share Posted May 1, 2016 (edited) Yes... Anyone can head down to court and do what you suggested, but things are rarely as black & white as you make them out to be. It's not all dollars and cents. If the sum total is a decent amount of money, sure - you sue (which should be the last, not the first resort) if they refuse to release your funds. But if it's some measly amount, then yes, you may indeed decide to chalk it all up to experience. For example, who knows who else was on that shoot that may have some real connections that you could use in the future? It could be that that person was also doing the producer "a favor" for the day. Then you decide to sue for whatever your day-rate was and the word gets around about that. Definitely not the kind of reputation you want to start out with. There are tons of politics involved, so yes - you weigh everything carefully. Yes, I wouldn't want the reputation of actually collecting what I earn. That could definitely turn off future Producers, er, scam artists. If the guy didn't pay me for my work, you bet your sweet cow I'd be hauling him into court. If he stiffed me once, he can do it again. So I'll most certainly never work for the guy again. So burning my bridges with him is the last thing I'd worry about. Second, yes - I would sue even if the amount was small. Why? I can get back all my court fees and actual costs if I win - so I didn't really loose anything, except maybe a day of my time spending a few hours in court. As for someone on the shoot with real connections, so what? This would basically mean to me the on-set connections were worthless to begin with. If the producer is stiffing only me, and others are mad that I sued him - then who needs them? If he is stiffing us all, then why should they be mad if I sued him - they should too. I'm not suing them. My problem with the logic behind many filmmakers is that they are so worried about their connections that they will bend over backward and take it to accommodate every cheating scam artist that comes out of LA (or Sydney, or London, or wherever you happen to be from) Peter Jackson sued New Line because they screwed him - do you think he gave two cents about his reputation with them? Of course that is a big budget example, but it proves the point that you cannot let others run over you on your track to greatness. Another problem I have with chalking an incident like this up to experience is that if this guy cheated this one person, he has done it in the past and will continue to do so, until someone stops him. So, while you're getting cheated out of your pay, he is simply moving on to the next person who he can cheat as well. The result? He is the next Spielberg rolling the riches, while you are working at McDonalds complaining about getting taken advantage of. No, there needs to be a STOP put to this kind of behavior. Too many people are taking advantage of filmmakers without the same power they have. Perhaps, if someone drags him into court (even if they don't get much), he'll think twice about doing the same thing to the next person. This is not a personal attack on anyone here, just a general sense of what I see in the industry as a whole. Edited May 1, 2016 by Landon D. Parks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Landon D. Parks Posted May 1, 2016 Share Posted May 1, 2016 (edited) How are you not a billionaire by now? R, I don't want to be, basically. I'm happy where I am now and have little desire to move up the power hungry chain. In reality though, I'm not doing too bad... I make more than a half-way descent living. And with that, I'm now done with this thread as well. If anyone want's to continue to argue their points, feel free to do it without me present. I'm tired of arguments that lead to nowhere, and that accomplish nothing buy wasting my time and the time of others here. Satsuki has a VERY valid point here - personal attacks are not appropriate, nor are arguments simply for the sake of arguments, or smartelic comments designed to incite arguments. . I will not get into any more of these insult-matches with people. I will continue to offer the advice I think is warranted, and you're free to argue those point as well if you like - just don't expect me to fire back. :angry: Edited May 1, 2016 by Landon D. Parks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 1, 2016 Share Posted May 1, 2016 You do crack me up Landon, I will say that. :) R, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD Hartman Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 Getting a judgement in small claims court and collecting it are two different things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 Getting a judgement in small claims court and collecting it are two different things. Yes indeed they are, quite right. R, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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