Anamorphic on Eclair.

[Carl Nenzen Loven]

 

You must have a very different one then, the ones I've seen had a CA-1 mount bracket inserted into a ring around the C-mount.

Sorry I must be drunk.....way too early.

 

C

[Gregg MacPherson]

Half right. Never got the adapter. Using a Arri S mount ang 9-57, which worked perfectly before...some slight vignetting. And on front I am mounting my adapter.

 

C

 

Carl, how do you cope with the Angenieux's rotating front. Does it not matter for this test..?

[Dom Jaeger]

It controls both, horizontal and vertical.

If we're talking 16mm, then that's incorrect. The registration pin on all 16mm Arriflexes only controls axial (vertical) registration. The side rails (sprung on one side in all but the SR1 and 2) control lateral registration. Almost every 16mm camera uses a side rail spring, it's nothing new and certainly isn't the only reason Aatons are super stable. My standard 8 cameras have sprung side rails, but they're nowhere near as steady as Aatons.

 

With Aatons the claw shape and pull down trajectory are vital in positioning the film in exactly the same vertical position every time. Any play in that mechanism, or pitting to the claw tip, or variations as speed increases, will introduce unsteadiness. It's not as reliable over time as a registration pin, which has a simple in/out trajectory which is far less likely to wear after thousands and thousands of feet, which is why rental houses invariably chose SRs over Aatons. With cameras that don't have registration pins you also need the pressure plate and gate to be perfectly clean and in factory tolerance so that the friction is strong enough to stop the film from moving while the loop is still shifting, but not too strong that the film doesn't slide forward smoothly to exactly position the next frame.

 

Pin registered 35mm cameras often use one small pin to register axially, and one large pin that fills the perf and registers both axially and laterally, so they don't need side rails at all. The 2C has a sprung side rail and no registration pin, and thanks to the claw trajectory which dwells at the bottom of the pull down it's pretty stable, but not good enough for plates or VFX, for example.

[Carl Nenzen Loven]

 

Carl, how do you cope with the Angenieux's rotating front. Does it not matter for this test..?

My adapter has an 300 degree free spin

[Dom Jaeger]

Ok so why is the Arricam SO MUCH BIGGER than the Aaton. It's not electronics, it's not the viewfinder, it's really down to the movement because if you remove that movement, the camera would be A LOT smaller. The bigger the camera, the more weight. I don't know if you've ever worked with an Aaton 35III, but they are SUPER SMALL even with a magazine. Plus, they're really not any louder then an Arricam LT/Moviecam SL.

The Aaton 35III is a totally different design, it doesn't need a film chamber or sprockets or anything more than the gate in the camera body as part of the transport path. So of course it can be smaller, although an Arricam LT is pretty compact. But the registration pin mechanism is a very small part of the movement, and doesn't add much weight at all.

 

According to the manufacturer specs, an Arricam LT is much quieter at below 24dB compared to an Aaton 35III which even in 3 perf is rated at 27/30 dB.

 

Again, if your experience with noise levels on one or two cameras is different to what the manufacturers themselves have stated then that's a valid anecdote but not necessarily a general truth. Using terms like "FAR quieter" or "really not any louder" could mean anything. I agree that registration pinned cameras have the potential to be noisier because of the extra interaction with the film perfs. Variations in Fuji and Kodak stocks used to create noise issues sometimes that required some tweaking of the movement, and shrinkage in old stock always added noise.

[Dom Jaeger]

Project is at a halt again. Seems all screw in adapters I've gotten is a millimetre off one way or the other.

And I know no one that does custom jobs for this.

So it's giving up, unless someone has a Nikon adapter to lend me for testing.

C

I'm sure if you took the camera, lens and adapter in to a rental house tech or someone like Bernie at Super 16 they could work out what your issue is very easily. I sort out things like this for students and low budget shooters all the time, usually you just need a collimator and a lathe and some experience with optics.

 

If you post some pictures of your problem maybe we can solve it here.

[Carl Nenzen Loven]

I'm sure if you took the camera, lens and adapter in to a rental house tech or someone like Bernie at Super 16 they could work out what your issue is very easily. I sort out things like this for students and low budget shooters all the time, usually you just need a collimator and a lathe and some experience with optics.

 

If you post some pictures of your problem maybe we can solve it here.

I mean the issue right now is simple. The lenses I have access to for screw-mount are odd sizes, and there are no step up ring to be found for 65mm, or 83mm (I do have a filter holder that is 83 screw in).

 

If you knew a person that makes a 65 to 77mm step up ring I am back in business.

 

The adapter has to be more flush than most cine lenses let you get (except zoom lenses). Hence why I would prefer that.

 

Bernie is great but I have talked about similar ideas like this before, he just doesn't have the time.

 

And finally none of the rental houses here in SF got a clue about film cameras anymore. Now it would be different down in LA, but not here.

 

C

[Samuel Berger]

I guess you could go 65-72 https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/310670-REG/Cavision_CR72_65_CR72_65_Clamp_On_Step.html

 

and then 72-77? https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/11688-REG/B_W_65041214_72mm_to_77mm_Step_Up.html

 

I just looked at it real quick, didn't research very deep or anything.

[Gregg MacPherson]

If you knew a person that makes a 65 to 77mm step up ring I am back in business.

 

 

And finally none of the rental houses here in SF got a clue about film cameras anymore. Now it would be different down in LA, but not here.

 

 

 

You mean like this one...I searched "65 to 77mm step up ring" in cameras and photo

 

Step-Up-Ring-M65x0-75-to-M77x0-75-for-Angenieux-9-5-57mm-lens

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Step-Up-Ring-M65x0-75-to-M77x0-75-for-Angenieux-9-5-57mm-lens/252934701632?hash=item3ae4154240:g:2DoAAOSwK6RZFdI0

 

EDIT: I can see that you haven't befriended any precision engineers or hobby machinists yet :)

 

Just coming back to the idea about the front of the zoom rotating...is the anamorphic adapter sliding on rails, or are you just aligning it manually for each shot for these tests.

 

Edited November 7, 2017 by Gregg MacPherson

[Samuel Berger]

Gregg has given you the answer. You must lash out with every limb, like the octopus who plays the drums, not walk around with watermelons on your feet.

Edited November 7, 2017 by Samuel Berger

[Gregg MacPherson]

Samuel, you ver would work just as well. I would probably grab the cheapest, nearest option and be happy.

 

I seem to remember the advice of the enlightened...strike like a tiger, in every direction at once...or did I miss-remember that.

 

EDIT: Thinking of Bruce at Aranda. When I talked to him on the phone he sounded like a guy who got excited about high end, novel camera modifications, vistavision or whatever, was uninterested in servicing someone elses S16 conversion, so I don't know if he's the guy to make one off step up rings etc. But, almost anywhere in the world, kick over a rock and you might find a precision engineer or a hobyist running a lathe in his garage who can easily make most of these things.....

Edited November 7, 2017 by Gregg MacPherson

[Samuel Berger]

It's been awhile, I do think he said "when you can balance a tack hammer on your head, you will head off your foes with a balanced attack."

[Carl Nenzen Loven]

 

 

You mean like this one...I searched "65 to 77mm step up ring" in cameras and photo

 

Step-Up-Ring-M65x0-75-to-M77x0-75-for-Angenieux-9-5-57mm-lens

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Step-Up-Ring-M65x0-75-to-M77x0-75-for-Angenieux-9-5-57mm-lens/252934701632?hash=item3ae4154240:g:2DoAAOSwK6RZFdI0

 

EDIT: I can see that you haven't befriended any precision engineers or hobby machinists yet :)

 

Just coming back to the idea about the front of the zoom rotating...is the anamorphic adapter sliding on rails, or are you just aligning it manually for each shot for these tests.

 

I must brush up on my Google skills. I spent weeks trying to find an adapter.

 

Well. I'll order now then!

[Samuel Berger]

My adapter has an 300 degree free spin

 

I'd like to see you approach a girl in a bar, smile at her, and hit her with that line.

[Carl Nenzen Loven]

 

I'd like to see you approach a girl in a bar, smile at her, and hit her with that line.

I'm in filmschool, you expect I haven't? ;)

[Samuel Berger]

I'm wondering what the image in the viewfinder is going to look like with that adapter.

[Carl Nenzen Loven]

I'm wondering what the image in the viewfinder is going to look like with that adapter.

Slightly distorted. I have shot with the adapter on my 35mm stills camera already.

 

This is corrected though.

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/BapGEmihF6q/?taken-by=nenzenlovencarl

 

C

Edited November 7, 2017 by Carl Nenzen Loven

[Samuel Berger]

There was a Super 16 Eclair ACL 1 for sale on eBay earlier today for $350. I thought of you when I saw it.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Eclair-Acl-Super-16-Movie-Camera-With-Two-400-039-Magazines-Motor-Not-Working-/322870184011

 

It was only there for a few hours, sold pretty quickly. I feel sorry for whoever bought it because you can't repair an ACL motor. The ACL 1 electronics are buried in a mass of epoxy so you can't get to them. But I did wonder if it was just poor contact.

[Gregg MacPherson]

There was a Super 16 Eclair ACL 1 for sale on eBay .... you can't repair an ACL motor. The ACL 1 electronics are buried in a mass of epoxy so you can't get to them.

 

 

Haven't heard that one before. Is this another urban myth like the idea that English mags are bad etc. What electronics are buried in epoxy? The almost non existent electronics in the ACL I camera base are not. The electronics in the multispeed heavy duty motor that many ACL Is have, are not. Is it the small Thomson motor you are referiing to.

 

The motor in those ebay photos is a very rare one. I don't think it was ever a standard factory offering. It will have been made by a Tobin or some similar Co.

 

Andrew at AZ Spectrum services the normal multispeed HD motors. Someone else may know if he services the Cinema Products modified or standard small Tomson motors..

[Samuel Berger]

 

Haven't heard that one before. Is this another urban myth like the idea that English mags are bad etc.

 

Bernie O'Doherty told me that.

[Samuel Berger]

Did you get the step-up ring?

[Carl Nenzen Loven]

Did you get the step-up ring?

Indeed.

 

The issue Gregg mentioned does appear though. Pulling focus is well...tough I might be able to oils the threads so the adapter spins more freely, but yeah. Better for static shots.

 

My roll of 7219 was sent to FotoKem yesterday so I'm excited to see what it turns out?

 

Anyone has any input on using B4 lenses (with converter) on the Eclair?

 

Because this pulling focus is not making it easy to use. And I want to shoot my 3000 ft of film I have in the fridge.

 

C

[Samuel Berger]

Carl, please post a picture of your camera with all the stuff on it.

 

Some of the Les Bosher modified Eclairs have been adapted to take rails. My suggestion to you is get some rails going and keep that Anamorphic adapter in place just like you would a matte box.

 

On my NPR I'm stuck with a single rail unless I want to go the Kevin Powell route.

[Gregg MacPherson]

 

Some of the Les Bosher modified Eclairs have been adapted to take rails. My suggestion to you is get some rails going and keep that Anamorphic adapter in place just like you would a matte box.

 

 

He makes a rod base and 15mm light weight rod set that fits to any ACL II. I thought he also did one for the ACL I, but I could be wrong. Check his website. There was another Co making sets like this for ACL also...A cheaper way if you are handy, DIY, is to buy some chinese parts and build your own. If one does so, it is a good idea to stick with the standard rod height, rod position relative to the lens axis.

[Samuel Berger]

Kevin Powell modified his NPR to where it looked like this:

 

 

All DIY, using a Redrock Micro rod holder he drilled into.

 

 

I actually have the same zoom he has.

 

He ended up selling it all for cheap a couple years back and now he customized a BMPCC....shame. I can't imagine why he'd get rid of his NPR.

 

In S16, in order for the 15mm adapter to be of any real use it has to align with Arri S16mm gear. For that you have to drop the single rod that comes out of the NPR down 14mm (center to center). Otherwise any rental gear (matteboxes, follow focus') you get may not fit centered on the mount.

Edited November 18, 2017 by Samuel Berger