Carl Nenzen Loven Posted November 1, 2017 Author Share Posted November 1, 2017 Carl, I think there are one or two real experts in servicing ACL, in Europe (Switzerland..?). When these people are identified we need to hang on to the contact data and share it.....We should have a rummage and see what we all come up with... Are you sure, never heard of this man. But you are right. This knowledge will soon be impossible to get so keeping an up to date list is important. I'm considering visiting S16 Inc to have them train me as well. We need a new generation of techs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samuel Berger Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 By the way, is it true that ACLs have no pin registration? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregg MacPherson Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 By the way, is it true that ACLs have no pin registration? Yes, just like the Aaton. And the Arri II... :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregg MacPherson Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 Are you sure, never heard of this man. But you are right. This knowledge will soon be impossible to get so keeping an up to date list is important. I'm considering visiting S16 Inc to have them train me as well. We need a new generation of techs. As an exercise I tried chasing down one of the leads that I had....A chap selling an Aaton and ACL a couple of years ago mentioned an ex Eclair/Aaton factory tech who may still be living in the Valencia region (Spain?). So I took a look, joined a French forum for camera obsessives, found a message by Bernard Dechaumel, ex Eclair/Aaton tech, establishing last activity about 2007. A message by an Anthony Mills dated 2016 mentioned that Bernard Dechaumel worked on his Cameflex, not sure when. Left messages with Bernard and Anthony....we'll see. It's good to look around...doesn't take much effort really... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samuel Berger Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 Yes, just like the Aaton. And the Arri II... :lol: Whaaaat? Add that to the list of things I wish I knew before... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon O'Brien Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 The Arri II seems to get by fine without pin registration though, on the big screen on major productions, usually as B camera. Lucas used it for at least a few scenes in Star Wars IV (1977), eg. some shots of the opening storm trooper scenes, storming Princess Leia's ship, and at least one shot of the raiders jumping on a Bantha. That amazes me, to think of that tiny little camera, used for that! https://i.pinimg.com/originals/68/ff/0c/68ff0c816403e10598ea763b9ae21f17.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregg MacPherson Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 Arri IIs were a B camera option here in the 80s, and some were shooting TV commercials with them also. I heard (but don't know first hand, so could be speaking through my arse like you know who) that whole features were shot on Arri IIs in India back then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samuel Berger Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 Arri IIs were a B camera option here in the 80s, and some were shooting TV commercials with them also. I heard (but don't know first hand, so could be speaking through my arse like you know who) that whole features were shot on Arri IIs in India back then. That is statistically possible since during the 1980's India produced about 5000 features per year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Nenzen Loven Posted November 3, 2017 Author Share Posted November 3, 2017 Update on the anamorphic: Today my adapter arrives to test my LG-AG7200 on my Ang 9-57mm I know it isn't a S16 lens, but it is a start at least. I have access to an SR2 Zeiss Zoom as well, and if test today is alright, that is the next competitor. C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samuel Berger Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 Let me see if I am keeping track correctly: You borrowed a Nikon-to-Cameflex adapter and are using a Nikon mount Angenieux 9-57mm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Nenzen Loven Posted November 3, 2017 Author Share Posted November 3, 2017 Let me see if I am keeping track correctly: You borrowed a Nikon-to-Cameflex adapter and are using a Nikon mount Angenieux 9-57mm? Half right. Never got the adapter. Using a Arri S mount ang 9-57, which worked perfectly before...some slight vignetting. And on front I am mounting my adapter. C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samuel Berger Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 Half right. Never got the adapter. Using a Arri S mount ang 9-57, which worked perfectly before...some slight vignetting. And on front I am mounting my adapter. C Mike told me that the Angenieux 12-120 covers S16 only from 35mm onwards. I wonder if this is also true of the 9-57. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Tyler Purcell Posted November 5, 2017 Premium Member Share Posted November 5, 2017 Whaaaat? Add that to the list of things I wish I knew before... Pin registration is unnecessary on the Aaton's because they have a spring loaded side rail that holds the film and prevents it from moving in the gate. You've gotta pay quite a bit of money for a pin registered camera and generally, they're bigger/heavier than one's without, due to the extra movement. It would be impossible to make a quick-change 35mm pin registered camera without it being BIG to accomidate all the extra bits. What's humours is that the SR's have pin registration, but they're louder than the Aaton XTR AND funny enough, have more "wiggle" in the image then the XTR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregg MacPherson Posted November 5, 2017 Share Posted November 5, 2017 The legitimate comparison would need to be between SR3s and XTRs, making observation of several properly serviced cameras. The prospect of a comparison is interesting, but needs to be made by a qualified technician with a scientific approach and an interest in unbiased interpretation....Same goes for the steadiness issue. Some of these issues have been clarified before (not humorous really). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Dom Jaeger Posted November 6, 2017 Premium Member Share Posted November 6, 2017 Pin registration is unnecessary on the Aaton's because they have a spring loaded side rail that holds the film and prevents it from moving in the gate. You've gotta pay quite a bit of money for a pin registered camera and generally, they're bigger/heavier than one's without, due to the extra movement. It would be impossible to make a quick-change 35mm pin registered camera without it being BIG to accomidate all the extra bits. What's humours is that the SR's have pin registration, but they're louder than the Aaton XTR AND funny enough, have more "wiggle" in the image then the XTR. Sigh. Here we go again. Plenty of cameras have sprung side rails - a Bolex for example, or earlier Arriflex models like the 16S or 16BL. Despite the internet's opinion, there's more going on in the Aaton design than that to keep them so steady. The registration pin mechanics on an SR are very compact and probably weigh about a couple of grams. On an Arricam it might add 50 grams and make the movement a cm taller. Not sure where you get your ideas, Tyler. SR3 dB rating is 20 +2, XTR is 20 -1 /+2, so almost identical. It always depends on the service history, mileage and condition, but those are the factory specs. There is no wiggle in the image of an SR3 in tolerance, I've looked at dozens of steady tests, they're rock solid, even at higher speeds. A worn SR1 or 2 might develop gate weave, but that's because it needs a service. In the past some telecines introduced gate weave because they stabilised the film horizontally at a different point than the camera does, and the film itself can have weave. These days stabilisation in post can pretty much eliminate these issues. If you encountered one noisy or unsteady SR it doesn't make it a general rule. As I've said before, SRs were industry workhorses far more than Aatons (probably because of their superior reliability), and many SR2s particularly got worked to death without proper servicing, but a serviced SR is neither loud nor unsteady. None of the dozen or so SR2s I looked after as a rental house tech were noisy, but some film school ones I saw were. Our SR3s were all dead quiet. I've come across dodgy Aatons. Damaged electronics because the boards are susceptible to damage through the flimsy base (avoid hanging one from the base upside down for example), complaints of mags not latching properly, constant alterations in the design that make one slightly different from the next, a dropped mag bending the lid and causing a light leak because they're not as sturdy etc. Wear to the claw mechanism of an Aaton will introduce unsteadiness if it's not regularly serviced, just like an SR. But I wouldn't disparage them generally, they're fantastic cameras, just like SRs. Having recently been involved in the prep of a production using a 416, I think that camera is the perfect blend of Aaton and Arri, absolutely beautiful piece of engineering. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Dunn Posted November 6, 2017 Share Posted November 6, 2017 Pin registration is unnecessary on the Aaton's because they have a spring loaded side rail that holds the film and prevents it from moving in the gate. I thought that pin registration also controlled vertical movement. I can't see how a side rail could do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Tyler Purcell Posted November 6, 2017 Premium Member Share Posted November 6, 2017 I thought that pin registration also controlled vertical movement. I can't see how a side rail could do that. It controls both, horizontal and vertical. The reason why the side rail works is it prevents ANY movement by putting just enough pressure on the film to keep it from sliding around in the gate. Without the rails, the film could theoredically shift slightly in the gate, but generally this isn't the case as the pressure plate puts just the right amount of force on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Tyler Purcell Posted November 6, 2017 Premium Member Share Posted November 6, 2017 Plenty of cameras have sprung side rails - a Bolex for example, or earlier Arriflex models like the 16S or 16BL. Despite the internet's opinion, there's more going on in the Aaton design than that to keep them so steady. Ohh I know, quite a few cameras use this trick. The registration pin mechanics on an SR are very compact and probably weigh about a couple of grams. On an Arricam it might add 50 grams and make the movement a cm taller. Not sure where you get your ideas, Tyler. Ok so why is the Arricam SO MUCH BIGGER than the Aaton. It's not electronics, it's not the viewfinder, it's really down to the movement because if you remove that movement, the camera would be A LOT smaller. The bigger the camera, the more weight. I don't know if you've ever worked with an Aaton 35III, but they are SUPER SMALL even with a magazine. Plus, they're really not any louder then an Arricam LT/Moviecam SL SR3 dB rating is 20 +2, XTR is 20 -1 /+2, so almost identical. My XTR came right from panavision service and my SR3 came right from Alan Gordon service. So I had two cameras that were right from service, and the SR3 was A LOT louder then the XTR. Now I've been using SR3's and Aaton's on set for a while and I've never heard a "quieter" SR3 then the one I owned, yet it was still marketably louder. You can't make the SR3 quieter, the pulldown and registration pin just fit the perf perfectly and they do make noise. The Aaton's system is pretty much noise-free. It doesn't "fit" the perf hole at all. It's basically a nearly flat blade that touches the bottom surface of the perf and that's it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Nenzen Loven Posted November 6, 2017 Author Share Posted November 6, 2017 Mike told me that the Angenieux 12-120 covers S16 only from 35mm onwards. I wonder if this is also true of the 9-57. Project is at a halt again. Seems all screw in adapters I've gotten is a millimetre off one way or the other. And I know no one that does custom jobs for this. So it's giving up, unless someone has a Nikon adapter to lend me for testing. C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samuel Berger Posted November 6, 2017 Share Posted November 6, 2017 Project is at a halt again. Seems all screw in adapters I've gotten is a millimetre off one way or the other. And I know no one that does custom jobs for this. bruce@arandafilm.com.au Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom lombard Posted November 6, 2017 Share Posted November 6, 2017 (edited) Nikon to C mount? https://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=email&A=details&Q=&sku=1003652&is=REG is what I'm using and they seem to work fine. And inexpensive. I've got several so I can keep them on several lenses. Edited November 6, 2017 by tom lombard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Nenzen Loven Posted November 6, 2017 Author Share Posted November 6, 2017 bruce@arandafilm.com.au You think we are talking hundreds, or thousands of dollars? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samuel Berger Posted November 6, 2017 Share Posted November 6, 2017 You think we are talking hundreds, or thousands of dollars? Ask him. :P I just know he might be able to do it, I don't know how much for, though. Nikon to C mount? https://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=email&A=details&Q=&sku=1003652&is=REG is what I'm using and they seem to work fine. And inexpensive. I've got several so I can keep them on several lenses. Tom, that sounds great! I should get one for the NPR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Nenzen Loven Posted November 6, 2017 Author Share Posted November 6, 2017 Nikon to C mount? https://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=email&A=details&Q=&sku=1003652&is=REG is what I'm using and they seem to work fine. And inexpensive. I've got several so I can keep them on several lenses. But ACL isn't C mount... C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samuel Berger Posted November 6, 2017 Share Posted November 6, 2017 (edited) But ACL isn't C mount... C You must have a very different one then, the ones I've seen had a CA-1 mount bracket inserted into a ring around the C-mount. Edited November 6, 2017 by Samuel Berger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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