SR3 mirror clearance measurements?

[Raymond Zrike]

Does anyone have the measurements for the mirror clearance of an Arriflex SR3? I’m trying to figure out if the new Laowa Nanomorphs would hit the mirror. Laowa said they won’t work with S35 cameras with mirrors, but I know that typically S16 lenses’ back elements went deeper into the body.

Here are the lens measurements that they sent me: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Xn20mL1gq7JEy3LOjYaYPF8miEijk8kd/view. Are they safe to use?

[David Sekanina]

I don't have the clearance dimensions for the SR3, but because I'm also interested in these anamorphic lenses, I checked the fit for an A-Minima (pink lines) and the Y16 (black), and all three lenses (yellow lines) have enough clearance on these two cameras.

So unless there are some S16 lenses that only fit the Aaton, but not the SR3, they should fit.

Edited August 19, 2022 by David Sekanina

[David Sekanina]

For those interested, the reason the mirror on 35mm cameras sits closer to the PL mount, and further away from the film plane than on 16mm cameras, is because the mirror has to cover a taller frame on 35mm cameras, hence in order for the mirror not to collide with the film plane, it has to move forward. ?

 

[Raymond Zrike]

I think I’ve heard of some lenses that don’t hit the mirror on Aaton bodies but do on the SRs, so hopefully somebody knows the SR3 dimensions. But this is helpful information, thanks! Seems like the Nanomorphs could be a great match for a diminutively sized camera like the A-Minima.

When I saw the announcement, I just realized how perfect a 1.5x stretch would be for super-16. 1.66 * 1.5 = 2.49. Would be super interesting to shoot with, though I’d have to probably supplement with a spherical lens on the wide end.

[David Sekanina]

Hmm. Dom posted these dimensions a few weeks ago, which are for the Alexa Studio (with rotating mirror shutter)

 

I now compare this with the dimensions given for the Loawa anamorphics (in yellow) and they are all within the Alexa Studio dimensions. So I don't know why Loawa tells you it won't fit a 35mm camera, let alone a 16mm camera, which has more clearance. ?

Edited August 19, 2022 by David Sekanina

[David Sekanina]

In green you see an S16 Optica Elite 20mm lens compared to ARRi Studio (blue) and Loawa anamorphics (yellow)

Edited August 19, 2022 by David Sekanina

[Raymond Zrike]

Loawa did say they cleared the Alexa cameras, though they didn’t specify if that meant all of them. Maybe the lenses would hit the mirror in something like an Arricam? Or maybe they were just being cautious considering they couldn’t test every camera.

At the very least, the two Nanomorph lenses that have back elements that are shorter than a 20mm Elite S16, as shown in your diagram, will fit in an SR3. I’d presume the one that is moderately longer would also fit given it fits on the Alexa Studio.

Edited August 19, 2022 by Raymond Zrike

[David Sekanina]

1 minute ago, Raymond Zrike said:

 I’d presume the one that is moderately longer would also fit.

It's the widest one, and yes, being 1mm longer than the Elite 20mm should pose no problem, as the ground glass sits quite a bit further back. Best I could do ?

[David Sekanina]

Last puzzle piece: my Optex focal extender protrudes 29mm to the back and fits the the SR3 as well as the Aaton.

So even the widest of the anamorphic lenses protrudes less than my focal extender, so therefore it'll fit.

 

[Raymond Zrike]

Thank you for all your input regarding the clearance of these lenses. Seems like it'll work! Looking forward to trying them out as an incredibly compact anamorphic 16mm rig. 1.5x stretch seems much more useful than the 1.3x stretch that has been often used for super-16 anamorphic shoots. Hopefully the lenses resolve well enough, especially the widest of the bunch, to look alright on the smaller format given they were designed for super-35. Hopefully will rent at least the 27mm by the end of the year and posts some tests.

[David Sekanina]

 

[Robin Phillips]

I'd love to see the raw footage, the youtube sample seems to be killing the grain (or it was denoised, possibly sharpened). The eyes look a little soft in the demo but overall theres a degree of sharpness I wouldnt expect for such cheap lenses. Very curious how well calibrated their housings are. 

Boy would it be great if they also made a wider lens option in the future too

[David Jean Schweitzer, SOC]

Apologies for joining this topic a bit late. In November 2022 I shot some footage on my Xterà using the Nanomorphs, and can proclaim they are safe to use on S16 Spinning Mirror Reflex cameras. In addition I shot some test on a BOLEX EBM using the same glass. I did not come across any issues when using these on a REX system. These lenses are very sharp right out of the box. Sharp enough to use on S16 even at wide apertures.

NOTE: Sample footage is color graded without any grain reduction

Footage shot on an Xterà: 

 

Footage shot on a BOLEX EBM:

 

 

Edited February 26, 2023 by David Jean Schweitzer, SOC

[David Sekanina]

Loawa announced a 20mm 1.5X Nanomorph:

https://laowacine.com/product/nanomorph-20mm-t2-2-mft/

I checked again if the 20m (white) is also within the ARRI Studio envelope (blue), and it is ?

It'll cover S16 nicely, but not S35.

 

Edited November 2, 2023 by David Sekanina

[Raymond Zrike]

6 hours ago, David Sekanina said:

Loawa announced a 20mm 1.5X Nanomorph:

https://laowacine.com/product/nanomorph-20mm-t2-2-mft/

I checked again if the 20m (white) is also within the ARRI Studio envelope (blue), and it is ?

It'll cover S16 nicely, but not S35.

That's fantastic news! I'm surprised since I wouldn't think there is much market for a PL-mount MFT lens, but that works perfectly for s16. And T2.2! You're basically completely covered with the 20mm, 27mm, 35mm, and 50mm. Maybe throw in a 9.5mm/6mm Ultra 16 for when you have to go wider.

[David Sekanina]

I was pleasantly surprised too. Hope your S16 shoot is going well.

[Jon O'Brien]

Exciting possibilities with these new lenses. On 16mm I feel you really need every bit of sharpness you can muster so it's good to know people are saying they're sharp. I think though I'd probably be inclined to still shoot spherical and crop in post if I wanted, say, 'scope widescreen on Super 16. It would be great to see some S16 footage shot on these lenses that is sharp enough to see the film grain.

[Raymond Zrike]

I'd love to try them out and get some 4K scans, but nobody seems to have any of them for rental in NYC. It's odd; been waiting for at least one person on ShareGrid to pick them up for nearly a year.

[Gregg MacPherson]

2 hours ago, Jon O'Brien said:

Exciting possibilities with these new lenses. On 16mm I feel you really need every bit of sharpness you can muster so it's good to know people are saying they're sharp. I think though I'd probably be inclined to still shoot spherical and crop in post if I wanted, say, 'scope widescreen on Super 16. It would be great to see some S16 footage shot on these lenses that is sharp enough to see the film grain.

Hey Jon,

David Jean's sample i thought looked very pretty (1st clip). It doesn't look like it's trying to show the sharpness.  But if you look through you find parts that suggest the sharpness...the walking boots... the blond hairs, bright against black. I think maybe the sharpness needs to be carefully measured, maybe on the lens projector.  

Not sure what you mean about the film grain..?

Edited November 3, 2023 by Gregg MacPherson

[Jon O'Brien]

1 hour ago, Gregg MacPherson said:

Hey Jon,

David Jean's sample i thought looked very pretty (1st clip). It doesn't look like it's trying to show the sharpness.  But if you look through you find parts that suggest the sharpness...the walking boots... the blond hairs, bright against black. I think maybe the sharpness needs to be carefully measured, maybe on the lens projector.  

Not sure what you mean about the film grain..?

G'day Gregg, I agree, it looks pretty. I wasn't criticising. I just got the impression that maybe a tad sharper look at what the lens can do online would be great. As in, I'm sure the lens and everything looks great, but that perhaps a sharper looking scan or upload would be very helpful for an accurate idea of what's possible with these new lenses. That's what I meant about the grain. It's just a measure of how sharp an online sample of footage really is -- at least, in theory what it would ideally be. Not wanting to upset anyone of course, step on any toes, haha, quite used to that here from years back. I'm not being critical at all. In fact I'm quite supportive and positive about the new lenses. Sometimes perhaps you are a bit oversensitive, overcritical, or overprotective when there's no cause to be? Peace.

Edited November 3, 2023 by Jon O'Brien

[Gregg MacPherson]

Hey Jon,

I didn't mean to seem critical. I just wasn't sure what you meant.

Cheers.

[Jacob Robinson]

On 11/2/2023 at 10:38 AM, David Sekanina said:

Loawa announced a 20mm 1.5X Nanomorph:

https://laowacine.com/product/nanomorph-20mm-t2-2-mft/

I checked again if the 20m (white) is also within the ARRI Studio envelope (blue), and it is ?

It'll cover S16 nicely, but not S35.

 

31.16 – 31.50 that is very tight! Is there any danger of hitting the mirror? 

Looking to try this on a XTR Prod

[David Sekanina]

According to the ARRI envelope, it's within, so it should be safe, as the envelope itself has an additional clearance to the mirror and focusing screen

[Jacob Robinson]

On 11/2/2023 at 10:38 AM, David Sekanina said:

Loawa announced a 20mm 1.5X Nanomorph:

https://laowacine.com/product/nanomorph-20mm-t2-2-mft/

I checked again if the 20m (white) is also within the ARRI Studio envelope (blue), and it is ?

It'll cover S16 nicely, but not S35.

 

31.16 – 31.50 that is very tight! Is there any danger of hitting the mirror? 

Looking to try this on a XTR Prod

 

 

Thanks David. You don't happen to know the depth of the mirror on the Prod do you?

[David Sekanina]

The ARRI lens profile is for their 35mm cameras, where the mirror sits closer to the PL mount. The 16mm cameras have more clearance, and the Aaton even more than the ARRI SR series, so you'll be fine.

This is why you can't use certain 16mm lenses on 35mm cameras, even when the image circle would be big enough.