Continuous-take music video, Super-8

Niels kakelveld · February 24, 2023

I'm entertaining the idea of recording a 3 minute acoustic performance on a single super 8 cartridge, as one continuous take.

I'm already talking with the musician and he would totally be up for it and use it as his official acoustic video of the song.

He said he will have to shorten the songs a bit to fit in 3 minutes but that's no problem.

He also said he has a portable recording setup so we can do it inside or outside whenever.

A few questions:

I'm also thinking to put a field recorder ontop my 1014 XL-S or Beaulieu 6008 as a backup and to get the camera noise/ambiance. Any idea how loud the camera noise will be?

Neither camera are crystal sync, should I still use a film slate at the beginning and end of the film?

I want to move around and change angles during the video, any idea for cool shots?

Joerg Polzfusz · February 24, 2023

Hi!

When moving around with the camera, then don’t put the recorder/mics onto the camera. This applies to all types of cameras (film and video). Reason: the volume and the quality of the sound differs from the distance and the relative angle to the artists‘ mouths/instruments. E.g. when recording a band, moving from the drummer to the guitars will decrease the volume of the percussions and instead increase the guitars‘ loudness. And when recording the singers from behind, their voices will be faint and muffled.

Another reason for keeping the microphones away from the camera: They would record the cameras‘ noises (film transport, motor zoom, auto exposure, …) and sometimes even the noise of your hands touching different parts/buttons of the camera.

As for slating: when slating right at the start and the end, it could be that the slate is on the piece of film that will be removed by the lab. So you should calculate at least a 5s „buffer“. However, any acoustic signal that has a visible, recorded sign, will be good enough, e.g. recording the drummer‘s first hit or the singer‘s „1…2…3“ before the song starts.

When doing short sequences (10-20s), then your cameras should be good enough to be in sync with a digital recorder. But when shooting a whole cart without interruption, then be prepared for the camera to show the „end of film“-sign after 2min 50s or after 3min 10s (instead of 3min 0s). That’s because the cameras‘ speed isn’t stable enough and because the length of the film in the cart isn’t exactly 15m (as stated by Kodak). Instead, it will be at least 50ft (15.24m) long (as stated on the boxes for films sold in the USA, Japan, …), most likely closer to 51ft (15.54m) or 52ft (15.85m). That’s because the lab will cut off a few centimeters at the beginning and at the end of the film. That’s because these sections will be ruined by light leaks when inserting/removing the cartridge. And the labs don’t want the customers to complain about this as it might be mistaken for a problem caused by the lab. And Kodak doesn’t want the customers to complain about the processed/returned film being shorter than 15m/50ft, but Kodak doesn’t know who many centimeters the labs will remove.

Cool moves? Sorry, I can only give you advice in dull and boring moves. ?

Hope this helps

Jörg

Niels kakelveld · July 3, 2023

Thanks Jörg, That's a lot of good info.

I might also want to record some tripod shots, and I am thinking which mics to use.

I assume if I put the GoPro ontop of the camera and use its internal mic the mechanism audio will be way too loud. I see most super 8 mics can be angled up and extended outwards away from the body to cut off noise.

Are mics like the canon BM 50 and 70 directional towards the front, so audio coming from the back like the camera noise is mostly cut out?

So I am thinking getting a BM 50 or 70 and plugging it into the GoPro would be ideal. Unless there are modern comparable microphones?

Joerg Polzfusz · July 3, 2023

Hi!

Most microphones for S8-cameras are unidirectional. There are hundreds of modern equivalents to them. However, there aren’t any modern „boom microphones“ that I know of (as they expect you to have proper microphone stands/tripods with extensions etc.).

The main questions are:

Mono or stereo?

Do you only need the sound as a reference? Or should it be the only source for your final result?

Do you know the difference between a microphone directly attached to the guitar and a microphone being located several meters away?

Why don‘t you use a wireless microphone or a sound-guy with a boompole?

Tyler Purcell · July 3, 2023

I'm unaware of any Super 8 camera that actually holds crystal perfectly. They weren't engineered to. So sure you can pump crystal sync into the motor, but little variances in the cartridge, will cause it to fall out of sync. It won't be consistent either, it falls out in random places.

There are no quiet super 8 cameras but the Logmar. So you'll always have the tick tick in the background. Will it be detrimental? Probably not too bad. If the music is loud, it should be fine.

The sync is the biggest problem.

3 minutes is going to be tight.

Karim D. Ghantous · July 4, 2023

I think it's a great idea, partly due to the technical challenge. You could consider going 16mm, perhaps? Just a thought.

Anyway, the advice given to you so far is spot-on so I can't add much. I do want to warn you of potential issues that you will face. Firstly, if you are doing a continuous take, how are you going to do a tripod shot?

Secondly, I recommend a gimbal. Nobody likes to watch shaky hand-held footage. The curse of the Internet Super 8 shooter is a shaky camera in addition to very quick pans due to the panic induced by the film running through the gate. The shooter knows that he has a limited time, and so rushes every shot, and doesn't know what do focus on for more than two seconds.

IMHO the most important thing about this project is how well you plan it. So, good luck, and I look forward to seeing the result. ?

Jon O'Brien · July 6, 2023

On 7/4/2023 at 7:55 AM, Tyler Purcell said:

I'm unaware of any Super 8 camera that actually holds crystal perfectly. They weren't engineered to. So sure you can pump crystal sync into the motor, but little variances in the cartridge, will cause it to fall out of sync. It won't be consistent either, it falls out in random places.

There are no quiet super 8 cameras but the Logmar. So you'll always have the tick tick in the background. Will it be detrimental? Probably not too bad. If the music is loud, it should be fine.

The sync is the biggest problem.

3 minutes is going to be tight.

In the US, Pro8mm hire out their Classic camera which is a fully rebuilt Beaulieu 4008. Some of the hire cameras have crystal sync.

Tyler Purcell · July 6, 2023

16 hours ago, Jon O'Brien said:

In the US, Pro8mm hire out their Classic camera which is a fully rebuilt Beaulieu 4008. Some of the hire cameras have crystal sync.

Yep, but super 8 cameras can't hold crystal. The motor will be, but the movement isn't designed for it. So there are variances. I've had several crystal Beaulieu's in my shop and tested them with a strobe, they ain't even close to crystal. This includes my 2016. Not shocked, but at the same time, annoying.