Cameflex 16mm magazine problem

[Joao Paulo Miranda Maria]

Hello,

 

I have a cameflex 35/16mm and I am having a problem with the 16mm magazine. I don't know if the problem is the pressure pad that doesn't make the film get caught by the claw to be pulled down or if the magazine is not specific to the series model of the camera. Here is a video of the problem: https://youtu.be/Ul_MOVCrQUQ

 

I am based in Paris and am looking for a place to do a check service. I appreciate all the attention and advice.

 

Best,

Joao Paulo MIRANDA MARIA

[Marek Budzynski]

Might be easiest to do a zoom call and you can show me the camera in real time. I might be able to spot something.

Cheers

Marek

[Joao Paulo Miranda Maria]

1 minute ago, Marek Budzynski said:

Might be easiest to do a zoom call and you can show me the camera in real time. I might be able to spot something.

Cheers

Marek

Thank you! We can schedule. My e-mail is jpmiranda82@yahoo.com 

In the meantime I'll try to make a video of the claws working and the pads.

Best,

Joao Paulo Miranda Maria

[Joao Paulo Miranda Maria]

Marek, here is one video showing the claws work and details mine magazine pression pads: https://youtu.be/YYItqxGvvSo 

The 16mm claws are more subtle than the 35mm, but I can see them coming out. I also noticed in a test with the magazine cover open, that still inside the magazine, before the film came out for the Gate, a piece of the perforation was torn by the tension. And I have always checked that the internal jaws of the roller (both upper and lower) are fitted into the perforation, but something goes out of sync right at the beginning, as if the bobine (down side) is forcing to pull the film. Another detail, I am using a Perfectone 24fps motor.

[Joao Paulo Miranda Maria]

Here is a video of a test where the film is broken inside the magazine, at the top, before going to the gate:

 

[Frank Wylie]

It appears your upper and lower loops are a bit too large, but that's not going to cause your problem.

Are you using the inching knob to engage the perforations and test the loop by hand before starting the motor?  The take down claws do not engage the perforations from start-up and the lower loop is pulled too tight.  When you shut down, it appears that the claws do suddenly engage for a bit when the motor is slowing down.

Check the condition of the magazine latches; are they worn?  The startup torque of the motor may be slightly pushing the magazine back and moving the film plane backwards a fraction of an inch and causing the claws to miss the perforation.

Try running the test with gentle pressure on the back of the magazine, pushing it toward the film gate and see if you feel it move outward a bit.

Other than that, I would guess it appears that the pressure plate may need adjustment.

Edited April 12, 2023 by Frank Wylie

[Joao Paulo Miranda Maria]

55 minutes ago, Frank Wylie said:

It appears your upper and lower loops are a bit too large, but that's not going to cause your problem.

Are you using the inching knob to engage the perforations and test the loop by hand before starting the motor?  The take down claws do not engage the perforations from start-up and the lower loop is pulled too tight.  When you shut down, it appears that the claws do suddenly engage for a bit when the motor is slowing down.

Check the condition of the magazine latches; are they worn?  The startup torque of the motor may be slightly pushing the magazine back and moving the film plane backwards a fraction of an inch and causing the claws to miss the perforation.

Try running the test with gentle pressure on the back of the magazine, pushing it toward the film gate and see if you feel it move outward a bit.

Other than that, I would guess it appears that the pressure plate may need adjustment.

Thank you, Frank.

Yes, I checked the top and bottom knoob inching, seeing that the claws were well fitted on both sides. I also do the loop as indicated..  I'll try to make this pressure on the next test as soon as I find more 16mm used film to test on next days. Maybe I would need to do a good cleaning and adjust the pressure of the pads, I never did... the film looks after each test, having jagged marks and ruptured lateral perforations. But note that the jagged marks are made by the inner roller inside magazine, cause it's not the exposed side on the Gate, so they are marks made by rolling in the magazine that goes out of sync. Before I make each test I made the traditional loop by hand but when the motor start is exactly what you see on the videos... 

[Marek Budzynski]

I think it may be something to do with the claw not springing back on its upward trajectory. If the claw doesn't spring back then it will try to move the film stock in the wrong direction 

Try pressing the claw in with your finger and see if it's stiff. If it is stiff, keep pushing it in and pulling it out until it becomes less stiff.

I have to find one of my 16mm gates and see what's going on and see if I can replicate your problem. Can't do it until the weekend. I'll be in touch then.

Cheers

[Joao Paulo Miranda Maria]

9 hours ago, Marek Budzynski said:

I think it may be something to do with the claw not springing back on its upward trajectory. If the claw doesn't spring back then it will try to move the film stock in the wrong direction 

Try pressing the claw in with your finger and see if it's stiff. If it is stiff, keep pushing it in and pulling it out until it becomes less stiff.

I have to find one of my 16mm gates and see what's going on and see if I can replicate your problem. Can't do it until the weekend. I'll be in touch then.

Cheers

Thank you very much, Marek.
If you can make a video as soon as you can test it on the weekend, I would really appreciate it.  I believe it needs some simple adjustment to get this sync back. I also don't know if it would need to be lubricated to also help this process...

[Joao Paulo Miranda Maria]

Dear Merek, an update:

I just did a new test just now, with a little rest of film I had left, and it seems to have worked! 

I just opened the red lubrication thread and tried to put a drop of oil, but I say that I hardly put anything, it was really very little because I have here only a watchmaker's oil and the drops are stuck on an extremely thin brush... that is, almost nothing I put... I closed the thread and did this test. I don't know if it is just a lubrication problem. If you could tell me what kind of oil or even your maintenance procedure, please let me know.  

I would still like to one day do a complete cleaning and professional review on it, and who knows, maybe come to London in person with the camera and see if you could do this service for me. I look forward to hearing from you so we can talk about it.  For now I would be very grateful if you could give me some tips on cleaning and lubricating it, so that I can test a real shoot again and make sure it is working better.

All the Best,

Joao

[Marek Budzynski]

Dear Joao,

                   Send me a personal message (PM) and I can send you a zoom link and I can show you what I think with one of my cameras on Saturday, Sunday or Monday. I was thinking of doing a breakdown video where I take one to bits in real time and post it on Youtube.

I can also send you a copy of the breakdown PDF I made a while back. Camelex cameras are super simple and I use sewing machine oil. It works very well.

I'll email Les Bosher and see what he uses. I'll email you the pdf as well.

 

Cheers

Marek

[Marek Budzynski]

Here's a link to the strip down PDF: https://we.tl/t-Gk866efFqv

I'll make a little video for you showing what you have to do with the claw to test to see if it's working properly.

Cheers

Mare

[Joao Paulo Miranda Maria]

9 hours ago, Marek Budzynski said:

Here's a link to the strip down PDF: https://we.tl/t-Gk866efFqv

I'll make a little video for you showing what you have to do with the claw to test to see if it's working properly.

Cheers

Mare

Thank you so much, Marek! I really appreciate your attention and any suggestion you can show me to check for proper functioning will be very helpful. All the Best!

Joao

[Boris Belay]

Joao, There is a lubrication chart in the back of the Cameglex manual.  Have you look at it ? It's rahter important for these older cine camera, which require frequent lubrication.

I would use any decent fine oil, as the chemical industry has made substantial progress in the many decades since the Cameflex was introduced.  A few drops should do.

Marek, nice strip down pdf.  I have a fair bit of Cameflex parts, in case you ever need something to keep yours running.  I focus mostly on ACLs...

[Joao Paulo Miranda Maria]

5 hours ago, Boris Belay said:

Joao, There is a lubrication chart in the back of the Cameglex manual.  Have you look at it ? It's rahter important for these older cine camera, which require frequent lubrication.

I would use any decent fine oil, as the chemical industry has made substantial progress in the many decades since the Cameflex was introduced.  A few drops should do.

Marek, nice strip down pdf.  I have a fair bit of Cameflex parts, in case you ever need something to keep yours running.  I focus mostly on ACLs...

Thank you Boris, I don't have the manual. I just found some informations on internet. If you have this chart, please share it. All the Best!

[Boris Belay]

I can't remember where I found it, but it was somewhere on the web.

[Boris Belay]

next

[Boris Belay]

and finally:

[Joao Paulo Miranda Maria]

1 hour ago, Boris Belay said:

and finally:

Thank you Boris, I tried hard to find the complete illustrated manual in pdf. I found one English version but is not the same as your.

[Marek Budzynski]

This is a message for Boris. I don't think I have a copy of your Cameflex manual. Would it be possible to get a PDF?

I'm always interested in Cameflex parts. Original screw particularly. I also have a bunch of parts if you ever need anything specific.

I started reformatting the BBC Cameflex Technical document in order to add new photos etc. I'll give that a go over the next few months and send links to the finished document.

I have one question. Your manual says use a special depth gauge after reassembly. How would you suggest adjusting the distance other than rotating the brass lens adapters. Is this even possible with Nikon adapter conversion?

Sorry about all the questions.

Cheers

Marek

 

[Joao Paulo Miranda Maria]

Dear Friends,

As I said before, the problem in the 16mm magasin was solved with lubrication and cleaning... But now that I got one bobine of 35mm I am also testing the other magasin I have. Unfortunately a similar problem appears, but lubrication does not solve this time.

Testing with motor and manually, I see that the problem happens in the magasin (even though they are different), because the perforation tears were made by the Sprocket down claws inside magazine forcing to push the film.

I have a theory that it could be a problem with the Magazine light-trap-actuating lug or the Upper and lower single roller adjust. I saw that they can be adjusted, but I still don't understand how to do it.

Thanks again for all the  knowledge about it, even though I still look for other manuals to better understand the whole system and details of cameflex magasins. Here are photos:

[Joao Paulo Miranda Maria]

[Joao Paulo Miranda Maria]

Here is the down claws of the Sprocket, where it tore the perforations.

 

[Marek Budzynski]

What happens when you try running the magazine without any film? Does the take up bobbin move? What happens when you inch it through manually.?

If it was the bottom sprockets that you point out then the top sprockets would do the same thing and tear the other side?

Are the claws springing in and out?

Cheers

Marek

 

[Joao Paulo Miranda Maria]

14 hours ago, Marek Budzynski said:

What happens when you try running the magazine without any film? Does the take up bobbin move? What happens when you inch it through manually.?

If it was the bottom sprockets that you point out then the top sprockets would do the same thing and tear the other side?

Are the claws springing in and out?

Cheers

Marek

 

Thank you Marek again! 

Without the film, the take up roller moves normally as with the film too...  I checked the magasin manually assembled and detached from the camera too... On the two moments the take-up roller pulls the film, but always the top part of the loop increases as if the film has some difficulty getting out of the top part, maybe something is impeding the exit of the film from the top passage or something is really impeding the claws of the plate to pull down the film... As we talked last time it's not looking to be a problem of the plate claws (they worked normal and they're not stiff) 

But maybe something could be preventing or hindering the contact of the claws with the film: see the picture of this piece on the plate, which I haven't found any information about and is not in the BBC manual. Do you know what it is? Because it was easily removable, without any screws, and it had two types of small thin wires inside it as if this piece would help to guide and press the side of the film... I will show here a photo.