looking to buy a 16mm camera

[Zamir Merali]

I'm considering buying a 16mm camera later on to play around with and shoot some short films on. I may eventually shoot a feature film on it. I was looking at cameras on ebay and was wondering if it woudl be possible for me to do sound with one of the wind up bolex cameras. Would it keep sync througout the shots and well as with all the other shots so i could use it as a mos camera. Thanks for your help.

[Rob.m.Neilson]

I'm considering buying a 16mm camera later on to play around with and shoot some short films on. I may eventually shoot a feature film on it. I was looking at cameras on ebay and was wondering if it woudl be possible for me to do sound with one of the wind up bolex cameras. Would it keep sync througout the shots and well as with all the other shots so i could use it as a mos camera. Thanks for your help.

 

You could shoot sync with a motorized bolex. The FPS might not run perfectly, but I think it would be close enough unless you are planning to do very long takes for the film.

 

However a bolex is really loud, and you would have to pile the DP under sound blankets for most of the shots.

 

It also depends how much cash to have to spend. If I was going to shoot a feature on S16 I would buy an Arri SRII, or an Aaton Minima...but those are a bit expensive.

[Olex Kalynychenko]

I'm considering buying a 16mm camera later on to play around with and shoot some short films on. I may eventually shoot a feature film on it. I was looking at cameras on ebay and was wondering if it woudl be possible for me to do sound with one of the wind up bolex cameras. Would it keep sync througout the shots and well as with all the other shots so i could use it as a mos camera. Thanks for your help.

 

I think, Kinor-16 SX-2M with 10-100 zoom lens and modfied 29EP crystal synch motor, 120 m film magazines will be good chooce for you.

The informatin about Kinor 16 and modified 29EP crystal synch motor you can see on forum or my pages.

[Nate Downes]

I'm with Olex, for the price the Kinor is an excellent camera for sync sound work.

[Zamir Merali]

First of all thanks for your suggestions guys.

 

Two more questions.

 

Would a k3 camera give me the same picture quality as any other 16mm camera except that it would not run at a consant speed? Secondly, how does this camera look, http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewIt...A%3AIT&rd=1

 

Thanks for your help.

[Mike Rizos]

That camera is almost identical to the early CP-16. The biggest drawback is being non reflex, and you are pretty much stuck with a lens with a sidefinder.

That particular camera looks to be in bad shape, and it costs about $1,000 to rebuilt them. Then you need batteries, magazines, another lens. I am not sure what is meant when the lens is described as "loose". It also looks like it has a musty odor.

If you're patient you can pick up a Bolex 4 or 5 with three lenses and/or zoom, for a few hundred on e-bay.

[Tim Carroll]

If you are looking for a very reliable, fantastically well built, 16mm camera that universities like NYU, UCLA, and many others use for their students first short films, look no further than the Arriflex 16S. Here are some on eBay for sale:

 

Arriflex 16S/B

 

 

Arriflex-16S-Camera-and-Battery-Package

 

 

Arriflex 16S with Cooke Kinetals

 

 

Arriflex 16S w/Accessories

 

 

-Tim

[Rik Andino]

Before you go out and invest on a 16mm camera

I suggest you take a little bit of time to learn about shooting film

And specifically learn a little bit more about 16mm cameras.

 

Shooting 16mm film isn't complicated

but it helps to have a bit on knowledge on the subject

Before you invest all your money into it.

Shooting film is expensive enough

& you don't want to make unecessary costly mistakes.

 

If you're looking for a camera to learn filmmaking on

the K-3 or the Bolex are both very good choices...

The Arri-S is also a good choice expect a little more expensive to own.

 

However if you're looking for a camera to shoot a low-budget short of feature

Then you have to start looking at better cameras--

Because all three cameras aren't going to cut it when it comes to pro-synch sound shooting.

 

At the low end you'll find cameras such as the aforementioned Kinor or CP16

Also cameras like the Arri 16BL and the Eclair NPR...

 

if you have a little more money you can get an Eclair ACL or an older Aaton or Arri SR.

Which are very good cameras for professional synch sound shooting.

 

It takes time to learn which cameras are useful

And which you shouldn't waste your money on.

So I suggest you buy a few books and read up on 16mm cameras

Before you start spending you hard-earned cash.

 

 

Good Luck

[Zamir Merali]

I've finally narrowed my selection down to two different cameras. One is a bolex h-16 reflex with a motor included. The second is an arriflex 16s. The h-16 is 71 dollars right now but with a day to go so i dont know how expensive it will get. On the other hand the arriflex is already at 400 and has three days left. Ive seen the same arriflex deal go for 400 so i think that could be close to the final price. I want to know if you have any advice on which camera to go for.

 

Here is the link for the bolex

http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewIt...A%3AIT&rd=1

 

Here is for the arriflex

http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewIt...A%3AIT&rd=1

[Clive Tobin]

...

Here is the link for the bolex

http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewIt...A%3AIT&rd=1

 

Here is for the arriflex

http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewIt...A%3AIT&rd=1

The Bolex is a slightly beat-up looking original Reflex AKA Rex-0 from I think 1956. It does not have the 1:1 shaft for the newer crystal or timelapse motors made by us or by Bolex. However we still make a crystal motor that will fit, the TXM-26B if you ever want to try double system sound filming with it. The supplied motor is a Unimotor whose speed is governed more or less with the camera's speed dial while you feed in a rather odd voltage, 24 or 30 volts DC. This has the rather small (6x) and dark reflex finder. It does not have a variable shutter but frankly I think you are better off without one. It will not take a 400' magazine. For looking for a newer model you might refer to the Identifying Your Bolex article with lots of pictures on my website.

 

The Arri does come with the 400' magazine which is powered by a very noisy (audibly and electrically) torque motor. We no longer make a crystal motor for the Arri S or M but you could shoot double system wired sync with a Nagra or similar audio recorder, if you get the constant speed motor and have the pilot generator installed. (I don't know if anyone still offers this.) I will defer to Arri experts for any additional analysis.

[Tim Carroll]

Of the two of those I would definitely go with the Arri 16S because you can do so much more with it.

 

Find one of Clive's motors and it is a crystal sync camera. Even with a properly set up 24 fps constant speed motor you can record sound with a DAT, MiniDisc or Hard Drive recorder and sync in post. As long as the takes aren't too long, it really isn't that tough (but Clive's motor is a better way to go). If you want to shoot sync sound, use 100 ft internal loads and wrap the camera in a down coat, packing blanket, or something similar to deaden the sound. Don't try sound recording with the 400 ft mag and torque motor attached, they are VERY LOUD.

 

There are many professional lenses available in ARRI standard mount, where there aren't for the C-Mount Bolex.

 

There are 200 ft magazines, multiple matte boxes, the camera takes standard ARRI 15mm lightweight rods that many folks make. This will also let you use follow focus and many different brands of matte box.

 

The Arriflex 16S was designed and built to be a professional 16mm motion picture camera. The Bolex was designed and built to be a prosumer 16mm motion picture camera.

 

But then again, I am a bit biased.

-Tim

[Olex Kalynychenko]

At the low end you'll find cameras such as the aforementioned Kinor or CP16

Also cameras like the Arri 16BL and the Eclair NPR...

 

if you have a little more money you can get an Eclair ACL or an older Aaton or Arri SR.

Which are very good cameras for professional synch sound shooting.

 

If we compare cameras from technical characteristics, i think, Kinor-16 ( crystal sync motor version ) need compare with Arri SR, Elcair ACL, not with Eclair NPR.

The many my customers, who use of Kinor-16 cameras, to compare Kinor-16 with Arri SR-1, 2 cameras and prefer of Kinor-16.

 

Yes, we told about Arri mount lenses, but, we must compare quality of this lenses and price of this lenses too. Russian lenses have low price and high optical characteristics. The users of russian lenses compare quality of OKS and OPF lenses with quality of Carl Zeiss lenses.

 

The many filmmakers be delighted with quality of Optal Illumina and Elite Optics lenses, but, this is new generation of russian OKS and OPF lenses.

 

That's why, i recommend study of all sides of cameras before choose.

[Max Lundberg]

If we compare cameras from technical characteristics, i think, Kinor-16 ( crystal sync motor version ) need compare with Arri SR, Elcair ACL, not with Eclair NPR.

The NPR is technically way more similar to the kinor than the ACL. Both have spinning mirror shutter, reg pin, adjustable shutter(only early kinor models) etc.

[Tim Carroll]

Olex,

 

Please do not take offense, but you cannot possibly compare the Kinor 16 with an Arriflex 16SR, or SRII. The Arriflex is a production camera that is used professionally around the world (with everything that entails like the availability of accessories, support, lenses, etc.). It is in a whole different league than the Kinor 16.

 

-Tim

[Tomas Stacewicz]

It is in a whole different league than the Kinor 16.

 

People that have compared the picture quality of Arri SR:s and Aatons with the Kinor-16 say otherwise; it plays in the same league. But when it comes to accessories, service, etc. I agree with you. Obviously, you have to gain something if you want to pay the higher price.

[Tim Carroll]

People that have compared the picture quality of Arri SR:s and Aatons with the Kinor-16 say otherwise; it plays in the same league. But when it comes to accessories, service, etc. I agree with you. Obviously, you have to gain something if you want to pay the higher price.

 

I can compare the picture quality from an Arriflex 16S/B that you can pick up on eBay for $600 with the picture quality from an $50,000 Aaton XTR if we use the same lens on both cameras and both cameras are set up to spec. That doesn't tell you anything.

 

To compare a Kinor 16 with a professional production camera, and everything that entails, like availability of matte boxes, follow focus, lightweight rods, baseplates, etc., not to mention service, is just not realistic. And that does not even begin to cover issues like build quality and reliability.

 

Not saying the Kinor 16 is not a nice camera for what it is, but it is certainly not a professional production camera in the same league with the SR's.

 

-Tim

[Bill DiPietra]

I agree. Learn a bit more about shooting FILM. Maybe take a class in which you use a few different 16mm cameras. I learned on the Bolex and the Canon Scoopic in college. I wasn't fond of either. I usually rented the Arri 16S and learned the camera on my own. I recently bought one with Zeiss primes. Very nice camera.

[Chad Stockfleth]

I have a 16SR package for sale for a pretty affordable price if you have any interest. PM me with questions.

[Olex Kalynychenko]

Olex,

 

Please do not take offense, but you cannot possibly compare the Kinor 16 with an Arriflex 16SR, or SRII. The Arriflex is a production camera that is used professionally around the world (with everything that entails like the availability of accessories, support, lenses, etc.). It is in a whole different league than the Kinor 16.

 

-Tim

 

 

About Eclair NPR and Kinor.

I check of user manual of NPR again and not see any words about transport mechanism and registration pins.

If you send me picture from film gate of NPR and mechanical diagram of NPR camera, i can change of my opinion.

I know ACL very good and repair many ACL cameras and i can compare of Kinor mechanism and ACL mechanism inside.

 

Kinor-16 professional cine camera, design and use for professional film shooting.

Kinor have mono lens mount with design and optical quality similar of Arri PL. I not set Arri standard lens mount on one line, because, this is lens mount have other design and less precision of clamping of lens.

The turret design of lens mount i not compare too.

Kinor have wide set of prime lenses from 6 mm up to 200 mm, wide set of zoom lenses 7.5-75 mm, 10-100 mm, 12-120 mm. This is not professional set of accessories ?

Yes, Kinor 16 SX-2M have not mate box, similar of Arri SR, because, this is not need, the every of lens have personal lens hood and use of big mate box on reportage filming not good idea.

The compendium have Kinor-16 SX-1M.

You need compendium ?

You can take compendium from Konvas-1M camera and use with Kinor-16.

What technical characteristics of Kinor -16 worse from Arri SR ?

But, you can buy Arri SR for $800..1200 ? not. Kinor can be buy for this money.

Yes, Arri company make very good cameras, but, this is very expensive equipments.

 

Today Kinor can have crystal sync motor with fixed speeds and digital voltmeter.

On future, Kinor can have crystal sync motor with speed synthesizer with steps of 1 fps, 0.1 fps, 0.01 fps, digital film counter, digital remote control and other electronics possibilities.

[Tim Carroll]

Olex my friend, we will have to agree to disagree. All the best to you.

 

-Tim

[Mike Rizos]

I've finally narrowed my selection down to two different cameras. One is a bolex h-16 reflex with a motor included. The second is an arriflex 16s. The h-16 is 71 dollars right now but with a day to go so i dont know how expensive it will get. On the other hand the arriflex is already at 400 and has three days left. Ive seen the same arriflex deal go for 400 so i think that could be close to the final price. I want to know if you have any advice on which camera to go for.

 

Here is the link for the bolex

http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewIt...A%3AIT&rd=1

 

Here is for the arriflex

http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewIt...A%3AIT&rd=1

 

The Bolex is an early one with a very small viewfinder. Before you purchace a Bolex make sure you understand the different models like Rex 1, Rex 2...Rex 5. This is very importent with the Bolex more than any other camera, because improvements were made over time, but the camera body didn't change. For example the early reflex had a 6x finder, later 10x and finally 13x. Forget the 6x, it's not really usable.

From those two, definetly go for the Arri, although you would be better served with 10-25-50mm lenses.

 

Your combination of choices is somewhat curious, because they are not really comparable, which seems to indicate that you should spend more time researching your available options.

[Thibaut de Chemellier]

The NPR is a rock steady camera if well maintained.

You can upgrade the camera pretty easily: PL mount, Super 16mm, video assist, support bars 15mm / 60mm space, add a follow focus and a 4x4 swing away mattebox.

If you have a small and quiet Aaton motor you end up with a really nice and reliable piece of equipment?the other great thing on this camera is the variable shutter from 5°(!!!) to 180° and the Angenieux viewfinder who delivers a bright and well magnified picture, compared to the small and dark picture of the SR1 or 2.

I don?t know if there?s many camera technicians around the world who knows the Kinor?

[Tomas Stacewicz]

I don’t know if there’s many camera technicians around the world who knows the Kinor…

 

One of the most renown technicians, Les Boscher, does. He even does conversions of Kinors to Super16 och PL-mount.

Edited October 17, 2006 by Tomas Stacewicz

[Max Lundberg]

I check of user manual of NPR again and not see any words about transport mechanism and registration pins.

If you send me picture from film gate of NPR and mechanical diagram of NPR camera, i can change of my opinion.

You can easily check these things from the internet, you know.

read the description.

 

[Olex Kalynychenko]

the other great thing on this camera is the variable shutter from 5°(!!!) to 180°

 

A some words about variable angle of shutter disk.

This is modern device now and many film makers wish use this possibility.

But, you must careful , this is double-edged weapon.

From one side, you can set small angle of shutter disk and receive " trick effect " of "jagged movie ", but, from other side you need remember about synchronization of speed of camera and angle of shutter with frequency of main power and light pulses.

If you shoot at daylight, not problems, but, if you use HMI lighters, you must make additional calculation and check tables.

 

The other sides of cine cameras with electronics with outside synchronization of speed. You can connect signal from main power on camera electronics and electronics will adjust of speed of shooting with frequency of main power and you will not have any problem with "winking".

 

I don?t know if there?s many camera technicians around the world who knows the Kinor?

 

Yes, The many camera technicians on the world know not Kinor cameras, because, USSR not exported Kinor-16 cameras and this cameras was closed for outside world.

The design of Kinor included many high-precision parts and technology, that's why had a some limitations.

 

For example, The electrical motor of Kinor camera, 29EPSS inlcuded DC motor ( DPR-72 ).

This is DC motor delivery on assembly line at special order, because, this is motors to use on spaceships, war industry and aircraft building.

At time of USSR, If i will need replace of DPR-72 motor at repair, i must write many papers and give broken motor, after this only i can receive new motor for repair.

The every DPR -72 motor have factory serial number on body and had factory test record sheet.

 

And i wish say thanks of all persons, who send personal opinions on forum.

We have very good place for show of personal opinions, exchange of knowledge and taking a many additional information