The current state of 16mm shooting in Australia

[Patrick Cooper]

So I'm curious about the current state of 16mm film production in Australia. Not too long ago, I was shocked to find out that major lab processing of 35mm motion picture film has been largely scrapped in this country. So supposedly, there are no more Australian movies being shot on 35mm film anymore. Though what about 16mm film production for the small screen? It didn't seem all that long ago when I was an extra on the set of the TV series McLeods Daughters and they were shooting S16 on that show. 

Are there many TV series, TV commercials or music videos that are shot on 16mm film in Australia these days? Or has digital video mainly taken over?

I'm hoping that there are still some production crews that are shooting music videos on 16mm film in Oz. Ive written a song which is very much 1980s inspired hard rock music (mainly the lyrics.) One day, if funding allows, I'd like to gather a bunch of musicians and record the song in a studio, release as it a single and hire a crew to shoot a music video for it as well. And it would be awesome if the MV could be shot on 16mm to emulate the look of the older MVs like with Cold Chisel, The Divinyls or Midnight Oil etc. 

 

 

[Mark Kenfield]

I'm a little surprised that you'd be "shocked". The celluloid industry here collapsed almost overnight with the arrival of viable digital cinema production. It started declining rapidly in 2008 with the arrival of the Red One and 5D MkII, and the coffin was sealed as soon as the Alexa arrived in 2010 (along with the widespread adoption of 2k Digital Projection).

The labs all collapsed, and the only gear that wasn't sold off or scrapped, was bought up by a few tokens individuals who valued the history of it. So there's been almost no celluloid infrastructure down here for over a decade.

For quite a few years, we were having to send film over to Singapore for processing - until a few small operations opened up again to cater to the limited demand that still remained.

16mm has been seeing something of a resurgence locally over the last few years, as hip (predominantly Gen-Z) cinematographers have been exploring it for music videos and a bit of commercial work.

There's very little use of it reaching narrative production (outside of the odd short film).  

But the important point is - you can shoot and process S16mm locally these days, and get it scanned at high quality.

I have a couple of rolls of 7207 sitting in the fridge that I'd love to use up before they become completely useless - so if you can get the song together I'd love to get involved! It's not easy to convince people of the aesthetic value of it these days.

 

[Patrick Cooper]

Mark, thank you for your reply. Yea I admit Ive been out of the loop for a bit. That's good to hear that there has been a local resurgence in 16mm and that there are processing and scanning facilities still available. The only movie film I have shot in the last few years has been super 8 (and not a lot of it.)

And thanks for the interest in the possible music video for my song. I do have some ideas for it. I would need quite a few things to come together to get it off the ground. So it's very much up in the air at the moment. Definitely wouldn't be any time soon. I'm also working on some other songs as well (the lyrics.) Hopefully, I can team up with another song writer for the composing (the instruments.) And then there's funding too of course. 

Generally, I prefer simplicity when it comes to music videos. Some of my favourite clips have simply been showcasing a band performing (either on stage or some other setting.) I admit that there are some music videos that are a bit too flashy or gimmicky for my tastes. But sometimes doing something different can work really well. For example, I like 'Take On Me' by Aha with the rotoscoping and the comic illustrations. And of course Michael Jackson's 'Thriller' is a classic. Then again, with AC/DC, I generally prefer their earlier music videos with them performing in a minimalist studio setting (or outdoors.) I find a lot of the later AC/DC MVs are a bit too flashy with the band performing in these elaborate sets with huge numbers of extras. 

[Jon O'Brien]

22 hours ago, Mark Kenfield said:

... The celluloid industry ... started declining rapidly in 2008 with the arrival of the Red One and 5D MkII, and the coffin was sealed as soon as the Alexa arrived in 2010 (along with the widespread adoption of 2k Digital Projection).

The labs all collapsed ...

It's interesting to know the actual timeline of what happened. I missed the changeover to digital because I wasn't paying attention. I was really into filmmaking in my teens and early twenties, mainly on Super 8 with a bit of standard 8mm and 16mm, but I did do a bit of analog video also. I wanted to get into professional 16mm and 35mm and somehow break into feature production (by maybe going to AFTS as it was known then, at North Ryde) but it didn't seem feasible, and eventually I gave up by my mid-twenties.

In 2016 I got back into filmmaking again. My initial idea was to make 16mm music videos (of my own music) and post them on You Tube, and then go from there and build things up. I got a Bolex Rex 5, as I had sold my first non-reflex Bolex years ago. I was pretty amazed to discover though that, by that stage, filmmaking on movie film in Australia was nothing like what it had been. The revolution to digital had occurred during the years I was doing other things and also during a period when I wasn't going to the cinema. I started going back to the cinema, taking a careful look at what digital looked like compared to film and I didn't like what I saw and felt that we'd definitely lost something, in this country specifically, in our film industry by going the full digital workflow. The 'big pros' may disagree but, really, I feel that if someone says they can't see the worth of real film just going by the look of it then perhaps they shouldn't be in the business of making motion pictures -- that perhaps they lack the critical discernment necessary for the creative, production side of the arts. Sure, you can have entertainment without any art in it, or not much at all, but it won't be top shelf stuff. By "art" I mean something that looks beautiful, organic, natural, warm, and earthy, rather than cold, flat, and electronic.

I still feel that to be restricted only to digital is to be somewhat limited. Film emulation doesn't cut it to my eye -- it just looks exactly like what it is: a digital effect that aims to imitate something of better quality. That thing of better quality being, of course, film.

I'm very grateful for Neglab.

[Patrick Cooper]

59 minutes ago, Jon O'Brien said:

I was pretty amazed to discover though that, by that stage, filmmaking on movie film in Australia was nothing like what it had been. The revolution to digital had occurred during the years I was doing other things

Yea such a dramatic change during that time period. And not a change that I'm all that happy with. It didn't seem all that long ago when the bigger budget TV shows over here were shot on film. I kind of feel privileged now being an extra on a movie production that shot on 35mm film - Hey Hey It's Esther Blueberger. And a very enjoyable experience too. They were filming with two Panavision cameras and shooting on Fuji film. I imagine local movie productions these days are a very different beast. 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

2 hours ago, Jon O'Brien said:

I still feel that to be restricted only to digital is to be somewhat limited. Film emulation doesn't cut it to my eye -- it just looks exactly like what it is: a digital effect that aims to imitate something of better quality. That thing of better quality being, of course, film.

I'm very grateful for Neglab.

FWIW, I think that digital imaging works fine for photography (but you still have occasional things you need to watch for). For movies though? It's not that I'm against it, or that I don't like it (even old Red cameras are quite film-like, IMHO). But it's not so easy to just change over to digital, as if you are just changing a t-shirt.

I've seen some commercials with a decent LUT applied, which look better than some movies! (WTF is with these stupid "looks" anyway??). Back in 2017 I thought I'd give Sex and the City a try. Yes, it's actually a great show. But it looked terrific because it was shot on 16mm. Not just terrific, but authentic. So, I guess it depends on what that is worth to you. Is it worth the premium? You tell me.

[Jon O'Brien]

The film shooters in Australia are a few scattered people in each state who go their own way and do their own thing. If they stick around long enough they tend to drift into all digital work. Got to pay the bills. No great directors or DPs in Australia ever speak up for film that I'm aware of. It's an industry no no now. "My dear boy, we don't talk about film, you understand. It's poor form to mention the word!" You just don't talk about film any more in Australia because industry people think you're just an arty amateur (and maybe you are at that).

Do we have much of a feature film industry in Australia? I'm curious. Would love to hear about the state of the actual Australian feature film industry. I hear the occasional report of big budget super hero type movies (that kind of thing) being filmed on the Gold Coast but that's about it. When is an Australian going to make something as good, timeless, apolitical, home-grown, original, and as popular as 'Picnic at Hanging Rock' again in this country? Australians make great filmmakers in my opinion (just look at the ones that Hollywood snapped up). There's still an audience out there that will pay to go and see great pictures.

Edited January 15 by Jon O'Brien

[Jon O'Brien]

4 hours ago, Patrick Cooper said:

Yea such a dramatic change during that time period. And not a change that I'm all that happy with. It didn't seem all that long ago when the bigger budget TV shows over here were shot on film. I kind of feel privileged now being an extra on a movie production that shot on 35mm film - Hey Hey It's Esther Blueberger. And a very enjoyable experience too. They were filming with two Panavision cameras and shooting on Fuji film. I imagine local movie productions these days are a very different beast. 

Not much to brag about in comparison but I do remember as a kid in South Rd, Brighton, Melbourne, watching the film crew film a scene from 'Division 4' (an Aussie 70s police TV drama series). On 16mm I think.

Edited January 15 by Jon O'Brien

[Patrick Cooper]

18 hours ago, Jon O'Brien said:

I do remember as a kid in South Rd, Brighton, Melbourne, watching the film crew film a scene from 'Division 4' (an Aussie 70s police TV drama series). On 16mm I think.

A great experience. Always cool watching film crews in action. I don't recall that show but I do have some vague recollection of Cop Shop. I also have rather fond memories of Chopper Squad!

[Patrick Cooper]

Here's a blast from the past.

 

[Patrick Cooper]

Ive just checked out the intro for Cop Shop (a show which I haven't seen in many long years) and it looks like that one was shot on video tape rather than film. 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

22 hours ago, Jon O'Brien said:

When is an Australian going to make something as good, timeless, apolitical, home-grown, original, and as popular as 'Picnic at Hanging Rock' again in this country? 

The way things are going? I don't see it happening. Even Hollywood has forgotten how to make movies, for the most part. Australia has some of the great modern storytellers, so perhaps adapting their work is a starting point. Even then, it's the 'how', not just the 'what'.

In a world where everything is 'easy', like power windows, and GPS, and fast computers, etc, people tend to get soft, and their philosophical vision degrades. That's why the Star Wars prequels were merely okay. Lucas was very spoiled by that time.

[James Compton]

 

 

                  In 2024, there are still labs that process Super8/16/35mm in Australia.

 

NEGLAB

https://neglab.business.site

REWIND PHOTOLAB

https://rewindphotolab.com.au

NANO LAB(Super 8mm only)

https://nanolab.com.au

 

There are also still film labs there

PHOTOBEE

https://photobee.com.au/film-developing

FOTOFAST

https://fotofast.com.au/film-processing-services/35-film-processing

DO FILM LAB

https://dofilmlab.com.au

 

 

 

[Jon O'Brien]

19 hours ago, Patrick Cooper said:

Ive just checked out the intro for Cop Shop (a show which I haven't seen in many long years) and it looks like that one was shot on video tape rather than film. 

Yes I remember Cop Shop. I recall that it was shot on video. There was a practice for a long time on Australian TV, just like on British TV, to do the interior scenes on tape, and exterior scenes on 16mm film. But yes Cop Shop might have been one of the first Aussie shows that was all tape.

 

18 hours ago, Karim D. Ghantous said:

The way things are going? I don't see it happening. Even Hollywood has forgotten how to make movies, for the most part. Australia has some of the great modern storytellers, so perhaps adapting their work is a starting point. Even then, it's the 'how', not just the 'what'.

In a world where everything is 'easy', like power windows, and GPS, and fast computers, etc, people tend to get soft, and their philosophical vision degrades. That's why the Star Wars prequels were merely okay. Lucas was very spoiled by that time.

True, but it's interesting that some truly great productions are still slipping through the cracks. In the last ten years some really noteable films made overseas in my opinion have been Far from the Madding Crowd (2014), shot on 35mm, and First Man (2018), shot mainly on 2perf 35mm and S16 (well, many scenes in it look absolutely great in my opinion -- the film as a whole maybe not one of favourites but still very good), La La Land (2016), and Westside Story (2021). All shot on film ?

Any producers who might happen to wander in to this forum and read some of the things here --- please take note. Shooting feature movies on film is a smart economic move. Yes, yes, yes, got to have a good story, a good screenplay, we know that bit. Don't make the mistake though of thinking that only story matters. How the production is made is just as important. It's hoooowww the story is told that is just as important as the story. You can tell a good story well or you can tell a good story not quite so well. Film is a proven performer at getting a story told well on the big screen.

You too can be the producer for whom the ancient knight might well say: "You chose ..... wisely".

Edited January 17 by Jon O'Brien

[Jon O'Brien]

4 hours ago, James Compton said:

 

 

                  In 2024, there are still labs that process Super8/16/35mm in Australia.

 

NEGLAB

https://neglab.business.site

REWIND PHOTOLAB

https://rewindphotolab.com.au

NANO LAB(Super 8mm only)

https://nanolab.com.au

 

There are also still film labs there

PHOTOBEE

https://photobee.com.au/film-developing

FOTOFAST

https://fotofast.com.au/film-processing-services/35-film-processing

DO FILM LAB

https://dofilmlab.com.au

 

 

 

I get my film processed at Neglab. Werner the proprietor is great! He does a great job!! Neglab processes 16mm and 35mm motion picture negative.

[Patrick Cooper]

6 hours ago, James Compton said:

 

 

                  In 2024, there are still labs that process Super8/16/35mm in Australia.

 

And in a shock move, Atkins Technicolour in South Australia announced that they will no longer be processing E6 slide film. A big blow to still photographers. Apparently, Atkins are one of the oldest pro labs in Australia. 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

41 minutes ago, Patrick Cooper said:

And in a shock move, Atkins Technicolour in South Australia announced that they will no longer be processing E6 slide film. 

I'm not surprised. Ektachrome 100 is very expensive. 

[Dom Jaeger]

On 1/14/2024 at 1:15 AM, Patrick Cooper said:

So I'm curious about the current state of 16mm film production in Australia.

The last big lab in Australia, Deluxe, closed in April 2013.

In November 2013 Neglab re-opened, a much smaller operation, basically one guy. 

So we were without any processing facilities (outside of Super 8 or home development with Lomo tanks) for about half a year. But no major features have been shot on film in this country since Deluxe closed.

We have a pretty small film industry that manages to punch considerably above  our weight, but once the infrastructure for supporting large film productions was fully dismantled (and actually destroyed - Deluxe ordered their staff to trash their equipment to prevent any rival labs from possibly competing with them), the days of shooting film for major movies here was over. We don’t have the volume of work to justify re-investing at that scale. We’re lucky to have Neglab still doing an excellent job, but they are really the only dedicated 16/35 cine film lab here, and they’re small. 

I know there have been plenty of features made here over the last decade whose directors or DoPs explored the option to shoot film but changed their minds after investigating the logistics. Just recently Nitram, and Judy and Punch come to mind for example.

That doesn’t mean we don’t shoot film here though. There are actually plenty of little indie productions going on all the time, and a thriving artist film community, particularly here in Melbourne. We have world-famous experimental filmmakers like Richard Tuohy and Dianna Barrie working exclusively with film who tour the world showing their films and giving workshops. We have rental houses like Cameraquip and Panavision who have good inventories of film gear, and a  number of decent film scanning options. 

Among younger filmmakers there’s a real interest in analogue processes, which is a world-wide movement really. As possibly the last movie camera tech still actively servicing cameras in this country I‘ve been swamped with work over the last few years. It may prove to be a temporary fad, or it may solidify into a sizeable niche market, I’m hopeful it will be the latter. 

By the way, if you (or anyone) can get Mark Kenfield to shoot a music vid for you on 16mm, it will be fantastic. His work is extraordinary! 

[Jon O'Brien]

A small mobile film lab for feature productions could be built if there was the will for it, and perhaps the people behind the new Aussiewood at Coffs Harbour might consider such a thing. There are mega millions planned for that production hub, if it goes ahead full steam. I think if you're going to compete with the big people overseas it would be worth considering that you should ideally be able to do whatever they can do, in terms of quality. Digital and film can happily coexist. It doesn't have to be all one to the exclusion of the other. I don't know what the numbers are but US production knocks out a few movies shot on film each year, with the great majority shot on digital but with a few film productions helping to lift the whole industry. Film does lift productions, and an industry, into a higher level, as has been said by many very experienced filmmakers over the years. Yes it probably won't happen here, it would cost a lot, but would be good if it did happen.

I keep reading how the film industry here is going ahead in leaps and bounds. Sounds great to me. Okay so I'm a dreamer.

https://www.forbes.com.au/covers/innovation/aussiewood-film-industry/

Edited January 18 by Jon O'Brien

[Jon O'Brien]

Good to have you back, Dom. You seem to have been absent a little while. We need you!

[Karim D. Ghantous]

3 hours ago, Jon O'Brien said:

https://www.forbes.com.au/covers/innovation/aussiewood-film-industry/

Quote

Russell Crowe is backing a $438 million film studio in Coffs Harbour.

I am not sure why any movie needs to cost this much.

Quote

 

there were all these movie stars living in Byron Bay

 

Because of course!

[Dom Jaeger]

14 minutes ago, Karim D. Ghantous said:

I am not sure why any movie needs to cost this much.

The figure is to build a studio, not to make a single movie. A good quality studio attracts big productions, bringing in potentially billions, and gives employment to many locals while raising the skill level of our crews and our broader film industry workers in general. 

Currently our largest studios are on the Gold Coast. Lovely place, but culturally a little .. monochrome. Another hub around the northern NSW area would be fantastic. 

[Jon O'Brien]

True and apt on all counts Dom.

[Aapo Lettinen]

I know there's people in Australia still shooting 16mm as I have sent couple of my ACL and CP16R motors there. Probably could be more if there would be better lab infrastructure on the continent but if enough affordable cameras and small productions could be got in, maybe few small labs could be possible to arrange?