How do I transfer a Kemco HoMovie?

[Todd Ruel]

Hey, all.  Since a lot of you on these forums have been in the business a long time and have probably seen it all, I have a challenging question for you.

What's the best way to digitize and then edit together a vintage Kemco HoMovie from 1931?

This short-lived format shot 4 images in the space that a single 16mm image occupied on film.  The Kemco HoMovie projector would then project the movie showing the A frame, then the B frame.  Then the film would advance, and it would show the D frame and then the C frame.  After that, the film would continue to advance, and the projector would start with a new A frame.  The projection pattern was sort of S-shaped.

The goal was to increase the run time of a 100-foot roll of 16mm home movie film so that buying film was more economical.  A normal 16mm 4-minute runtime would be extended to 16 minutes with the Kemco HoMovie process.  The format got steamrolled by Kodak when they introduced 8mm in 1932.

Attached is a picture of a sample film.

So I'm asking:  what's the best way to transfer this with my Lasergraphics Archivist?

And secondly:  what's the best way to assemble this into a viewable sequence?

Scratching my head on this one.

[Perry Paolantonio]

Huh. I've never seen this format. Neat. 

I don't know about the archivist, but the first place I'd look is in the "Advanced" settings. When you load the film there's a button to show advanced formats (really just uncommon formats). There might be something in there. If not, then this could probably be done with some creative editing, though it would limit the resolution of each frame to 1/4 of the resolution of a full frame, so probably not ideal. You might ask Lasergraphics support as well. If they don't already support it they might add support for this, but they would need to have a film they can keep for testing on their end. If you've got spare film it might be worth a try. 

[Robert Houllahan]

Looks like un-slit standard 8mm with half the needed perforations.

how the hells?

Maybe:

On the LaserGraphics scanners I would try to load the advanced settings on the 16mm gate and then select ultra Standard 8mm setting.

Then you could try an over-scan with the stabilization turned off.

This might get you close to individual frames per frame scanned one side then go back and scan the other side?

 

[Simon Wyss]

6 hours ago, Robert Houllahan said:

Looks like un-slit standard 8mm with half the needed perforations.

That’s 16-mm. film. Indeed 16-mm. film was used.

[Todd Ruel]

So I asked Lasergraphics about this, and they replied:  "You can select "overscan" in image position and size. This will capture the entire image area."

When I asked them if they could create some sort of sequencing software to play back the frames in the correct order, they predictably replied:  "No. That is not possible with the Archivist software.  It would be VERY hard and would cost a lot in NRE fees. It is hard because of the serpentine nature of the frame sequence (i.e. both horizontal and vertical motion at different times)."

For some context, the projection scheme is S-shaped.  (I like how Lasergraphics described it as serpentine.  That's more accurate.)  Here's a link to a web page that describes the brief, brief history of the company and the Kodel HoMovie format:  https://www.kinocameras.com/apparatus/kemco-homovie

Yes, the film is 16mm.  The format was developed to shoot four frames in the standard 16mm image area, thereby increasing the runtime of a standard 100-foot roll of 16mm film by four times.  A 4-minute roll of 16mm film could be increased to 16 minutes with the HoMovie standard.

This format lasted about 3 years, maybe less.  It was introduced in 1930.  Sensing a threat to its dominance in the home movie market, Kodak released the 8mm format in 1932.  Kemco HoMovies were immediately relegated to a footnote in history.

23 hours ago, Robert Houllahan said:

On the LaserGraphics scanners I would try to load the advanced settings on the 16mm gate and then select ultra Standard 8mm setting

Robert, this sounds like a good way to start.  If I acquire these films, I'll start there.

Edited August 8 by Todd Ruel

[Dom Jaeger]

What sort of films are they? Are they worth all the hassle of trying to digitize them? I wonder if Kemko ever made a viewer/editor for their system. Finding a working projector might be another route, though dangerous if the films are valuable or rare.

I've always wanted to get my hands on a Kemko camera, to check out the mechanism. It was a pretty crazy idea, but they actually got it working. Standard 8 makes a lot more sense though.

 

[Todd Ruel]

I live and work in Dayton, Ohio.  The format was invented in Cincinnati.  (The K in the Cincinnati radio station WKRC stands for Kodel, the parent company of Kemco.)  The format used standard 16mm Kodak movie film.  The films I can acquire were filmed by a Kemco customer in Cincinnati shooting content in Dayton.  They are one of a kind.

It would be fairly easy to digitize these standard 16mm Kodak films.  I run a film/video transfer business in Dayton/Cincinnati called Memory House, and I have a Lasergraphics Archivist.

The problem is sequencing the images correctly so that they play back correctly.  Check out the link I posted above.  The author does a beautiful job telling the story of the company and explaining how the format works.  It actually makes a lot of sense.  I can't believe it actually worked, but it did.

I would never run these films through a Kemco projector or any kind of film projector.  Films shrink with age, and this film is now about 93 years old.  Instead, I would go ahead and digitize it, and figure out how to sequence the images electronically.

I have contacted Tommy Aschenbach to see if he would be interested in this challenge.  He's done amazing work interpreting the color in vintage Kodacolor films.  He's also one of the authors of the audio extraction app AEO Light.  Maybe this would be challenging enough to pique his curiosity.  (Not sure who else I would turn to!)

Stay tuned.

[Dan Baxter]

It should be relatively simple to do it in a scripting language (ie Avisynth+).

[Todd Ruel]

I am Mac-based only and will not move to Windows just for a project like this.  Are there any Mac-based equivalents to Avisynth+?

I’ve been researching this issue a little, and I really need some sort of front end GUI to work with.  Anything even a smidge easier than command-line programming would work for me.

Any ideas?

[Dan Baxter]

Your scanner runs on Windows 10 so you could always use its computer.

It might be possible to write a Python script for use in Fusion on MacOS, but I'd hardly say that would be easier than using Avisynth+ for which there's a very good front-end, and plenty of peer support. For any other alternative ideas the best place to ask would probably be on the Video Help forums. The issue you have is that there's really only so much you can do with ffmpeg, Resolve etc. What you're wanting to do is simple in terms of writing it out as a flowchart or pseudocode, but a bit complicated for most video editing software to handle. On the other hand pseudocode can be directly translated into a workable script. See example pseudocode below.

Load clip
clipA = crop frame A from clip
clipB = crop frame B from clip
clipC = crop frame C from clip
clipD = crop frame D from clip
Interleave frames from clips A, B, C, D.
Output result

[Greg Milneck]

On 8/7/2024 at 9:26 PM, Todd Ruel said:

 

For some context, the projection scheme is S-shaped.  (I like how Lasergraphics described it as serpentine.  That's more accurate.)  Here's a link to a web page that describes the brief, brief history of the company and the Kodel HoMovie format:  https://www.kinocameras.com/apparatus/kemco-homovie

Hi Todd,

Thanks for linking to my site (kinocameras.com). I have a complete set in my collection with the projector and accessories. I have viewed several of the films. It's an interesting format for sure. I also have an early (unrelated) prototype movement that utilizes a very similar pattern, although on 35mm film.

My camera came from the son of the inventor and includes a box of his early test films...I plan on transferring mine as well. I spoke with Jeff Kreines at Kinetta (http://www.kinetta.com/overview.html)  and he thinks he can transfer them...give him a call. Let me know how it comes out.

[Greg Milneck]

16mm HoMovie film

[Todd Ruel]

On 8/21/2024 at 5:55 PM, Greg Milneck said:

Thanks for linking to my site (kinocameras.com). I have a complete set in my collection with the projector and accessories.

Greg,

First of all, you have an excellent web site.  You tell the history of the format very well with lots of valuable pictures.  I especially enjoyed the shot of American Cinematographer Magazine from Late 1929 (I think).  I loved the deep dive into the topic.

I can acquire about three of these films from a local merchant.  I live/work in Dayton, Ohio, and the content on the films has local relevance to me.  It's also interesting that the format was developed just south of here in Cincinnati.

I have a Lasergraphics Archivist if you ever want to take a chance on me.  Plus, I have some interesting news.

Tommy Aschenbach, who has developed software to enhance the color in old Kodascope films, has agreed to take a look at some Kemco HoMovies.

The lesser problem is transferring them.  Jeff Kreines could scan them just as well as I could.  We both have excellent equipment to do so.  The greater problem is sequencing the pictures so that we could create a digital file that plays them back in the correct order.

Tommy has agreed to at least look at the issue.  I just have to get some film to him.  If you'd like to take a chance and have me scan one of your films (not the whole collection!), let me know.  You can contact me through my web site:  memoryhouse.tv.

Or if you already have some scans done, you can contact Tommy either through his LinkedIn profile or through his web site ColorLab.  If you do contact him, mention me.  I'm the one who first brought this topic to his attention.

[Robert Hart]

Another solution might be to optically copy to double 8 stock. That might get you frames 1 and 3 reproducing sequentially in the scanner set up for double 8 in one run then frames 2 and 4 reproducing sequentially in a second run. That would still leave you with the monkeypuzzle of how to reproduce all frames in a timeline in correct order. You might have to make do with frames 1 and 3 with playback speed correction from what would be a scan at half frame rate.- I think. The brain is beginning to fry in the effort of working this out. I don't know the Lasergraphics machine at all. It could probably be done on a Retroscan from a double 8 contact print made on a 16mm optical printer. Headache is looming from trying to imagine a way through this.

[Greg Milneck]

On 8/7/2024 at 10:32 PM, Dom Jaeger said:

What sort of films are they? Are they worth all the hassle of trying to digitize them? I wonder if Kemko ever made a viewer/editor for their system. Finding a working projector might be another route, though dangerous if the films are valuable or rare.

I've always wanted to get my hands on a Kemko camera, to check out the mechanism. It was a pretty crazy idea, but they actually got it working. Standard 8 makes a lot more sense though.

 

Yes, there is a companion projector. Ive viewed a few films on it...but because mine are the original test films I didnt want to risk it further. Standard 8 was what killed the Kemco...it was never a commercial success as Kodak quickly responded with 8mm film

[Greg Milneck]

On 8/26/2024 at 5:54 PM, Todd Ruel said:

Greg,

First of all, you have an excellent web site.  You tell the history of the format very well with lots of valuable pictures.  I especially enjoyed the shot of American Cinematographer Magazine from Late 1929 (I think).  I loved the deep dive into the topic.

I can acquire about three of these films from a local merchant.  I live/work in Dayton, Ohio, and the content on the films has local relevance to me.  It's also interesting that the format was developed just south of here in Cincinnati.

I have a Lasergraphics Archivist if you ever want to take a chance on me.  Plus, I have some interesting news.

Tommy Aschenbach, who has developed software to enhance the color in old Kodascope films, has agreed to take a look at some Kemco HoMovies.

The lesser problem is transferring them.  Jeff Kreines could scan them just as well as I could.  We both have excellent equipment to do so.  The greater problem is sequencing the pictures so that we could create a digital file that plays them back in the correct order.

Tommy has agreed to at least look at the issue.  I just have to get some film to him.  If you'd like to take a chance and have me scan one of your films (not the whole collection!), let me know.  You can contact me through my web site:  memoryhouse.tv.

Or if you already have some scans done, you can contact Tommy either through his LinkedIn profile or through his web site ColorLab.  If you do contact him, mention me.  I'm the one who first brought this topic to his attention.

Thanks very much. From my experience most of these films are boring, at least thats the case of the first two I pulled out and projected. They didnt quite grasp cinematography, so most are just moving portraits. Id love to dig in further though, as these are the first films shot with the camera, by the team that created it and before it was released to the public...so im hoping there may be some valuable footage in there. I have close to 30 films in total.

[Dom Jaeger]

5 hours ago, Greg Milneck said:

Yes, there is a companion projector. Ive viewed a few films on it...but because mine are the original test films I didnt want to risk it further. Standard 8 was what killed the Kemco...it was never a commercial success as Kodak quickly responded with 8mm film

I knew there was a projector, but I was wondering if they ever made a viewer/ editor for home movie editing. They tend to be a lot gentler on the original film than a projector, but still allow you to view the film. Not as simple to make for Kemco as the ones for 8mm though.. 

[Greg Milneck]

36 minutes ago, Dom Jaeger said:

I knew there was a projector, but I was wondering if they ever made a viewer/ editor for home movie editing. They tend to be a lot gentler on the original film than a projector, but still allow you to view the film. Not as simple to make for Kemco as the ones for 8mm though.. 

unfortunately the Kemco HoMovie was not a success, mostly due to Kodak's introduction of 8mm film shortly after Kemco brought their camera to market. Only about 200 HoMovie systems were ever produced. If you look here you can see the extent of the system:

https://www.kinocameras.com/apparatus/kemco-homovie

[Todd Ruel]

Again, I don't think scanning these films is a problem.  Most, if not all, of the midrange-to-advanced scanners have special settings for capturing the full width of the film.  There is also a variety of settings for scanning select areas of the film.

I would never run these films even through a viewer, and there are many such 16mm viewers.  It's not worth scratching them up or damaging them.

Just scan them using specialized settings for 16mm film.  The problem is sequencing the images correctly after you've scanned them.  That's the challenge, and it will require some specialized computer programming.

If there's anyone who could do it, Tommy Aschenbach of Colorlab seems like the guy to tackle the challenge.  (I have decided not to try this myself.  I don't use Windows, and I have no knowledge of Avisynth+, and, well, I ain't got no time to learn all this stuff.)

Edited September 1 by Todd Ruel