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IBC footage...


Jim Jannard

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Hi Jim,

 

Look forward to meeting you and seeing some footage!

Will there be a working camera to play with?

 

Stephen

 

Ack!!!! Don't tell me you're selling out Stephen :D

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We had a 4k screening at one of the major studios on Friday. I asked the question, "if film is a 10 in resolution, color and soul, what is this footage?". The answer was "9.985". I guess we still have some work to do. But not too bad for 8 months and our 1st footage. The studio is pretty well known and just aired a "super" movie shot digital.

 

Jim

 

One thing to consider... our sensor (which we proudly call Mysterium) is NOT like all the others, as has been assumed.

 

Jim

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Jim,

 

One thing I've always wondered is what drives some one like you?

 

I mean you already have a successful business, and your Wikipedia entry says you have two Bombardier Global Express Jets, which I safely assume means you have more money than you can ever spend.

 

So I mean why launch a new business into making a new HD camera? Why bother with the whole film/video industry at all?

 

What makes you want to do this?

 

Please note I don't oppose capitalism at all, I'm striving to be like you, the owner of a business and not the employee. Residual income is the key to wealth, right Jim? Am I on the right track?

 

Thanks

R,

 

PS: I'm a film die hard and will never use one of your cameras even if they're free. But I'd still like to hear your thoughts. You have to give me some points for honesty at least :D

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We had a 4k screening at one of the major studios on Friday. I asked the question, "if film is a 10 in resolution, color and soul, what is this footage?". The answer was "9.985".

 

wow good work. Now, what is the standard deviation on that calculation. It may very well be 9.983. also is that A-weighted?

 

I would love to see your breadboard. I am sure it is way cooler than any I put together when I was an amature electronic engeneer (I really shouldnt call it engeneering. maybe monkey with a transistor is a better discription.)

 

The studio is pretty well known and just aired a "super" movie shot digital.

 

So.......Scary Movie 4?

 

Can't wait to see the footage. You'll be exibiting at the Anchorage Film Festival right?

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We had a 4k screening at one of the major studios on Friday. I asked the question, "if film is a 10 in resolution, color and soul, what is this footage?". The answer was "9.985". I guess we still have some work to do. But not too bad for 8 months and our 1st footage. The studio is pretty well known and just aired a "super" movie shot digital.

 

Jim

 

One thing to consider... our sensor (which we proudly call Mysterium) is NOT like all the others, as has been assumed.

 

Jim

 

Good luck Jim! This is what the industry needs - people who are not afraid to go out and push the envelope and make a big change for the better. If there were no competition we would be in a sorry state.

 

:) :)

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Jim,

 

One thing I've always wondered is what drives some one like you?

 

What makes you want to do this?

 

Thanks

R,

 

PS: I'm a film die hard and will never use one of your cameras even if they're free. But I'd still like to hear your thoughts. You have to give me some points for honesty at least :D

 

Never say never. Unless you really like the idea of spending a ton of money on film, processing and turning it into data in the end. The missing link to a data camera is the soul. That was my quest. I have been shooting for 30 years, collecting for 20. I LOVE cameras and the art. I'm (self-proclaimed) an inventor and engineer, designer and visualist. I'm not saying how good I am at these, I'm saying what drives me and where my passion lies. We have all the tools to get this project done. And it is a worthy cause. I love a good challenge. Just tell me what can't be done.

 

8 months ago I said we would do this. At IBC we will show that we are on the road and we can make it.

 

Life is short. Do great things. Let the skeptics be the fuel to drive you. Do something you love.

 

That's it.

 

Jim

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8 months ago I said we would do this. At IBC we will show that we are on the road and we can make it.

 

Life is short. Do great things. Let the skeptics be the fuel to drive you. Do something you love.

 

That's it.

 

Jim

You know, around 15 years ago when digital video processing was just starting to gain momentum, I predicted there would come a time when all the hundreds of individual electronic parts that make up a Betacam or similar would be replaced with software-based processing using just a couple of LSI chips, and the tape-based VTRs would be replaced with Hard Disc units.

 

Engineering types accepted that notion readily enough, but what they wouldn't accept was that with that change, the manufacturing advantage would shift to the US and Europe with their much greater strength in software design. One startling consequence would be that the video camera market could well become dominated by non-Japanese manufacturers whom nobody had ever heard of.

 

And so it now appears to be the case with High definition video cameras! Although the RED is principally being designed as cinematography camera, with its proposed price, I'm sure it will see plenty of action as a studio HDTV camera.

 

Can it be done for the price quoted?

 

Well, everybody thought that DVD players would always be based on Japanese technologies, but just about all of them now are based on the same Zoran Chipset, designed in California. Those all-in-one chips are the reason we can buy a fully-functional full-featured DVD player for less than A$40 (around US$28). They've barely been on the market for a decade, and who would have believed in that time the player price would be dropping close to the price of a movie disc!

 

It's hard to believe that it was ten years ago that I first started to see samples of miniature colour surveillance cameras that basically consisted of a tiny circuit board with a CCD chip on one side and a single digital processing chip on the other. I can't see any reason why this can't be scaled up to 4K resolution, and once that is achieved, the HD video market will be changed beyond recognition, the same way the still camera market has.

 

I wish I had the money to embark on a project like this, but I'd probably prefer to be remembered for something more mundane, like a range of TVs, DVD recorders etc that anyone over 40 can operate without needing a degree in electronics and linguistics!

Edited by Keith Walters
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Never say never. Unless you really like the idea of spending a ton of money on film, processing and turning it into data in the end. The missing link to a data camera is the soul. That was my quest. I have been shooting for 30 years, collecting for 20. I LOVE cameras and the art. I'm (self-proclaimed) an inventor and engineer, designer and visualist. I'm not saying how good I am at these, I'm saying what drives me and where my passion lies. We have all the tools to get this project done. And it is a worthy cause. I love a good challenge. Just tell me what can't be done.

 

8 months ago I said we would do this. At IBC we will show that we are on the road and we can make it.

 

Life is short. Do great things. Let the skeptics be the fuel to drive you. Do something you love.

 

That's it.

 

Jim

 

Many thanks Jim. I don't mind spending money on film at all, I buy it super cheap in the after market.

 

As I have stated in previous threads HD & video is fundamentally flawed, a bit like putting square tires on your car. For two main reasons in my view.

 

1) The HD technology becomes obsolete as fast as you put it on the market. I guarantee that your company will come out with newer versions of Red in the years to follow, thereby dramatically lowering the value of the cameras you already sold. This happens with EVERY new camera system that is put on the market. I have my Arri BL2 here built in the 1980s, it can produce an image identical to the image produced by a 35mm movie camera built in 2006. Show me a video camera from 1986 that can match the image quality of a video camera built in 2006.

 

2) HD/Video does not in any way discipline the filmmaker. People shoot and shoot and shoot, after all tape stock is dirt cheap. People shooting film as a rule, in the lower to mid budget range, plan much better and take much greater care in setting up their shots. I laugh outloud when I hear about indie filmmakers who shot 60-70 hours of HD footage for their feature, if they where shooting 35mm they would never go that high I can assure you.

 

So good luck with your camera, it will take it's place along side the existing products out there, and be used by those who see it as an effective tool.

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Well, considering the heavy data load of shooting & recording at 4K, should people use the camera in this mode, they'll probably keep to film-style shooting ratios....

 

As for the first point, you might as well be saying that all electronic manufacturers from digital still cameras to cell phones should just get out of the business, since they are always updating their products and obsoleting old ones.

 

As for video users, despite the fact that video cameras devalue over time, that hasn't exactly stopped people from needing to buy video cameras, pro and consumer, for decades! It's quite a healthy market. The RED is being positioned in the same cost market as a Panasonic HVX900 or Sony HD XDCAM, and I'm sure the economics of such a purchase are similar -- i.e. the buyer should make sure that camera will earn back its costs withing two or three years. After that, it doesn't really matter if it is devaluing faster than a film camera, does it? You got your money's worth out of the thing. It doesn't have to be an investment that keeps its value twenty years later.

 

And someone might actually do some math and say "I can shoot a 4K image for a feature for less money than the costs of buying a 35mm sync-sound camera, stock, processing, and scanning it to 4K". Or even not scanning it to 4K.

 

I don't see any marketing problems with this camera. For the owner, 4K camera that only cost $17,000 for the body is a killer deal and a single feature shoot alone would probably justify its costs. The problem I see is just that I don't know how anyone can make a 4K camera and sell it for that price and turn a profit, especially after R&D costs. But for the buyer, it's not hard to justify such a purchase. It doesn't have to hold its value for twenty years, it just has to pay for itself within two or three years.

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Yes David on a camera with a retail of $17,000.00, if you made good use of it you would probably get your monies worth out of it. I would suggest that people wait six months after the camera finally comes out and then buy one off ebay for $3,200.00.

 

What I was really refering to with regard to HD was people that spend 100K on a new HD camera, I still think it's a bad investment unless it's working almost every day.

 

It will be really interesting to see if Red does become a tool that gets people into making features who are currently standing on the sidelines because of costs for either renting HD gear or buying film stock.

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Hi,

 

I find the "my 1902 35mm camera is still useful" argument very tired.

 

You've probably spent more money on stock, processing, telecine and grading in that time than you would have spent on a series of video cameras.

 

Phil

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Hi,

 

I find the "my 1902 35mm camera is still useful" argument very tired.

 

You've probably spent more money on stock, processing, telecine and grading in that time than you would have spent on a series of video cameras.

 

Phil

 

However, your film master will last a lot longer. I hear the magnetic coating is now beginning to come off some the early Betacam tapes.

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It will be really interesting to see if Red does become a tool that gets people into making features who are currently standing on the sidelines because of costs for either renting HD gear or buying film stock.

 

I'm sorry, but I just don't buy the notion that there are all of these amazingly gifted potential filmmakers who would turn out Citizen Kane level work if only they had cheap High Definition gear. These days, anyone can make a movie (and just about anyone does, regardless of whether the result is worthwhile). You don't need HD or film to do that. Cost is not a limiting factor - talent, ambition, time, and ability to collaborate are. If one is going to say that the potential exists for the projects now shot on formats like DV to look better for either the same or slightly higher cost in the future, that makes sense. But to imply that people are not shooting because they can't do it on HD or film seems more than a bit nonsensical. It's a bit like saying that people are not driving because they can't afford Ferraris.

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Hi,

 

I find the "my 1902 35mm camera is still useful" argument very tired.

 

You've probably spent more money on stock, processing, telecine and grading in that time than you would have spent on a series of video cameras.

 

Phil

 

Phil,

 

It's generally the B+H 2709's from about 10 years later and Mitchell standards from the 1920's that still have their uses today in Stop Motion, Time Lapse etc. Not sure how much longer with DSLR's :D !

 

Best wishes

 

Stephen

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Yes David on a camera with a retail of $17,000.00, if you made good use of it you would probably get your monies worth out of it. I would suggest that people wait six months after the camera finally comes out and then buy one off ebay for $3,200.00.

 

By that logic you could buy a tricked out Viper package for $ 32,000

 

I don't think so

 

-Sam

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By that logic you could buy a tricked out Viper package for $ 32,000

 

I don't think so

 

-Sam

 

I'm assuming you know I was exagerating, hence the low ebay number. (For the record I would not pay $32,000 for a tricked out Viper package.)

 

And Phil, so what if I've spent money on film stock and processing, I have my imagery on a 35mm neg that I know is far more valuable than any tape stock or hard drive. Plus there's the incredible added value to my customers and distributors who are more likely to be interested in what I shoot when they hear "35mm." Which translates into more sales and more money for me. The film is not a cost, it is an investment, there is a world of difference between the two. A cost depletes your bank account, an investment will raise it.

 

People who think only in terms of out of pocket costs won't get very far when it comes to making money, because it's all about ROI (return on investment) and not the costs.

 

Personally I like the fact that fewer and fewer people are learning film and shooting on it. It puts me and my work in a more unique category every year. The level of interest in my work when I tell people it's 35mm is 10 times their interest when you say HD. So I hope Red goes big and more people abandon film, it will just put more people like me in a unique category.

 

I'll never forget the time I was shooting 35mm at the Whitehouse, I was flooded by news camera guys who all crowded around to see the camera. They where just amazed that some one was actually shooting film, I kept hearing them say things like, "Man I wish I could shoot film."

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