Local 600 membership

[Michael Most]

I may be changing the topic in this discussion but I am working towards gaining entry into the union but all my work has been as a loader on a non-union show. I have heard that these days do not qualify toward the 100 days needed and that it is only 30 union days as a loader that allows you to enter at this position. can anyone confirm or deny this for me? thank you

 

 

Why don't you call the union and ask? That's a lot simpler and a hell of a lot more sure than asking some anonymous posters on an Internet forum.

[Kevin Sambells]

I was wondering how a DP can get union work if he/she is not in the union. How is it possible to earn union days or hours??? I'm sort of confused how the process works.

[Jon Kukla]

IIRC, the producer can specifically ask for certain people on union shoots, and if they aren't union already, then they can (must?) immediately join if they accept the union job. However, as you can imagine, this tends to usually happen in the case of the DoP, since the average producer isn't really too bothered with who AC's, as long as they are competent. I've been told that occasionally AC's do join the union this way, but it's very very rare. It makes more sense when you're hiring an HOD who is involved in the creative work.

Edited February 11, 2007 by Jon Kukla

[Annie Wengenroth]

All I have left to say about this topic after living off oatmeal all winter and borrowing money from my parents, is that the union is a serious investment and while they do allow you to go on a payment plan to deal with your initiation fee, you really should not join unless you have a reason to do so- namely, union work. BELIEVE ME. I KNOW. :D Point being, I don't agree with Phil completely, but I also think that people looking to join should be totally aware of the commitment that it is. They should also realize that it takes time for the work to really pick up. There is a logic and a structure to film schools and rental houses and other stable, safe ways of learning about this industry, and it all falls to poop when you get out there in the real world to either make 500 DOLLARS A DAY LOADING MAGS! WOW! Or...to starve if you don't work. I wouldn't change a thing about where I am now, I'm just saying. People shouldn't talk about how the union is this or that, if they don't actually have their facts straight. Not to mention, money is relative. The big chunk o' change is the initiation fee up front. Well, most of us went to college, right? That costs an arm and a leg too, right? Isn't it possible that joining a union is an equally worthwhile cost? I would even go as far as to say that it's more worthwhile. David Mullen emphasized what I too would put in boldface, italic, and underline if I weren't too lazy to look up the codes... THE UNION IS NOT A HIRING HALL. I think this is probably the most common misconception. Also, it goes without saying that things are different in the UK. Apples and oranges, kids.

[Phil Rhodes]

Yes, things are different here. We don't really make films or TV shows at any sort of professional level, is what's different!

 

Phil

[Jon Kukla]

Yes, things are different here. We don't really make films or TV shows at any sort of professional level, is what's different!

 

Phil

 

Speak for yourself.

[Christian Janss]

But I managed to shoot about 25 features in ten years as a non-union DP before that point -- but I was never going to advance much beyond the 2-mil budget for features if I wasn't in the union, so I joined just around the time when I was getting offered films in that budget range.

 

I know this is far off topic, and may be asking to reveal too much, but...

 

David, how did you manage to get on two and 1/2 features a year doing freelance? That seems a remarkable feat. I've been looking on LA Craigslist, Mandy, etc. and all I see are shorts (where they want you to have your own HD camera and work for $100/day) and only the occasional feature. I know you have to start small, and I have absolutely no problem with that, but 25 features in 10 years is a damn fine thing.

 

I'm not asking for a whole life story, or a "how to succeed in Hollywood" lecture, but tossing a few tidbits and advice would be very much appreciated. And of course if anyone else has some input please reply.

 

thanks mucho-

Christian

[David Mullen ASC]

It's just that most under-1 mil features are non-union in Los Angeles (at least, until recently). Soon after I started out, I shot a string of $700,000 straight-to-video (cable TV and home video) genre films (thrillers) in 35mm and they were all non-union.

[Alan West]

Please describe a better system because some new ideas would be nice.

 

It seems to me that the US unions are fulfilling a function which in my line of business in the UK (Archaeology) is covered by two separate organisations.

 

I belong to a union who look after my relations with my employer - negotiate pay and hours on my behalf, help with disputes (and I think they have a hardship fund as well). Anyone can join for a small amount every month, but you don't have to be a member of mine or any other union to work in the industry.

 

I also belong to the Insitute of Field Archaeology (IFA), to whom I had to demonstrate competance when I joined, and who have different levels of membership depending on competence and experience. Membership of this organisation is usually asked for by employers. If I am found professionally incompetent I can be struck off from the IFA.

 

I know this situation is repeated in the Museum world, where curators usually have to have Associate status in the Museums Association (AMA).

 

I'll leave you to decide if this separation of guarantee of proffesional skills and negotiation of terms and conditions with employers is a better system.

 

Alan

[Andrew Brinkhaus]

This has been a great topic to be reading, as I am right now thinking heavily about how I can get to where I want to be, as a cinematographer, in a professional world. I know I will probably not get to where I want to be, shooting big films for 20 or 30 years. I've decided I want to continue camera operating in LA after leaving school, but I am just confused on the whole Union/Non Union work topic. Is getting hired as an A-Cam Op, or B-Cam Op on a big show as easy as knowing someone, or contacting the production office early on? A lot of it is probably just luck...Being in the right place at the right time. Of course, I am talking about being non Union, and trying to work Union shows.

Edited August 6, 2007 by Andrew Brinkhaus

[Brad Grimmett]

Is getting hired as an A-Cam Op, or B-Cam Op on a big show as easy as knowing someone, or contacting the production office early on? A lot of it is probably just luck...Being in the right place at the right time. Of course, I am talking about being non Union, and trying to work Union shows.

Problem #1 would be that you're not in the union. You can't be hired on a union show if you're not in the union. There are exceptions to this, but I wouldn't plan on being the exception to the rule, since it's very rare that this happens. I've actually never heard of it to be honest.

Getting hired as an operator on a show (not just a big show...any show) isn't based on luck or just sending your resume in to production at the right time. Most of the time the operator has either worked with the DP, Director, or both, or has been highly recommended by someone that the DP and the Director know and trust (most likely another director, DP, or operator). Of course there are other ways too. Sometimes operators are hired by producers, and sometimes the 1st A.C. recommends someone. And sometimes an operator is hired without really knowing how they got his/her name. Sometimes there is an interview, and sometimes there isn't. It tends to be a little different every time.

If you're just coming out of school, realistically you're chances of getting work as an operator on union shows is basically zero. You may be able to find work as a utility on a non union reality show and work your way up to operating that way, or start as an assistant on non union projects and go from there. I don't mean to discourage you, but the reality is, there are a lot of operators out there, both union and non union, and many of them aren't working full time on a show. Some of the best operators I know don't work year round. There are a lot of great operators around, and the competition for jobs is pretty tough. So the chance that someone with little or no experience will get hired is very slim.

My advice would be to try to get some time on some sets. Work as a P.A. or an intern at first and get the hang of how a professional set runs. This is more important than most people think.

In the long run, it doesn't matter how you get work operating. What's important is that you can do the job and deliver the shots that the Director and DP are looking for.

I see that you're from Orlando. I'm from Orlando and started my career there as a PA on commercials. There are good crews there and a lot of great opportunities to learn. If I were you I'd try to get on some sets in Orlando and go from there.

Good luck.

[Andrew Brinkhaus]

Thanks alot Brad. I definitely understand and agree with where you are coming from. After school, I was also considering a different path...Getting into AFI's Cinematography MFA program. Most of the instructors there are ASC, and it is a very union-oriented school. Do you think by taking that route, I would be more likely to graduate and have job openings due to the connections and networking I gained while attending school? I know my work would be much stronger... Would it be more likely that I be hired as an operator or AC after spending that time there? Thoughts?

Edited August 7, 2007 by Andrew Brinkhaus

[Andrew Brinkhaus]

I know that really what it comes down to, is how hard I work at it. The people I meet, and the dedication and drive I have for getting to where I want to be. Even if it takes a long time. But, in terms of solid support, does the name "AFI" mean anything in the business? Are students more likely to be hired on if they have graduated there, rather than some guy looking for work. Obviously, I mean if they have the same amount of drive and commitment... I guess I just imagine AFI having great connections with the industry, and if you could get in good with some instructors there, maybe you could get recommended for work while still in school even.

[Brad Grimmett]

Not having attended AFI, or any film school, I can't answer that question. I'd guess that it would be a good networking tool. Graduating film school doesn't guarantee anything though. I've met film school graduates that are very successful and I've met some that can't find any work. Experience is more important than anything. Without some credits and contacts it's very hard to get hired. You have to prove that you're a decent camera operator before someone will hire you as one. It's a Catch-22, but that's just the way this business works. You should try to get in touch with some recent AFI graduates and see what they have to say.

[Andrew Brinkhaus]

I'll do that. Thanks again.

[Jayson Crothers]

I graduated from AFI about 2 years ago; I'm 28 and I'm about to start shooting my 8th feature. While I will never claim to be living a life of any sort of financial security or prosperity(at least for now), I can say that I am a Cinematographer. Period. I don't grip or juice to pay the bills and look for shooting opportunities where I can (not that there is anything wrong with that) - I only shoot and that's how I make my living.

 

How much AFI played a part in that is very hazy at best - about a year ago I sat down and tried making a chart of sorts to figure out where opportunities had come from over the years; it became a tangled mess that resembled the worst of TV soap operas. =)

 

AFI certinaly didn't hurt - I had the opportunity (was strongly encouraged even) to do things I'd never normally think of doing in an effort to learn and grow as a storyteller. I learned a great deal about how to manage a career, set management, and set politics (three skills that are vastly overlooked I think). More than anything, for me at least, AFI was a place where I discovered who I was as a filmmaker in terms of my aesthetic tastes, what type of career I wanted, and how I wanted to build my career and life in this industry.

 

The teachers and instructors at AFI are fantastic - top notch and they have a lifetime of experience they bring with them. They aren't, however, going to help you get work. I worked as the TA for the head of the Cinematography Dept. and after graduation he put my name out for a few things he heard about, but there isn't any anything like a career placement program.

 

It's a real mixed bag and the cliche is true - you get out of it what you put in. There are two other people from my class that work pretty regularly as DP's, a few people who don't do much of anything, and a lot of people who work as AC's, Gaffers, etc to pay the bills and shoot what they can when the opportunities come around.

 

My first feature out of AFI was with a bunch of other AFI people - that feature directly helped me get one about a year later. The feature I'm about to start shooting is my first 35mm feature and was a direct result of an AFI connection I made three years ago. All of my other features had nothing to do with any AFI people.

 

AFI shouldn't be seen as a film school - they presume you know a lot of the basics and are coming in with both professional experience and the drive to actually be a DP. If this is what you know you're doing, AFI would be a good place to look at. If you're unsure or still trying to figure out what you want to do, I'd pass and save your money.

 

Frankly speaking, the tuition has been steadily increasing and I'd be asking hard questions about how that money is being spent and what you can expect for such a big investment.

 

If you're in the LA area, feel free to contact me if you'd like and I'd be happy to try to meet up for some coffee whenever my schedule allows it. You should also call AFI and arrange a tour - make sure to ask about sitting in on some of the Cinematography classes.

[Andrew Brinkhaus]

Wow, thanks alot for all that great information Jayson. I know I want to be a DP, so that is taken care of. Right now, it's really about financing, and getting into a situation where I can "survive" in LA while paying back the school I am in now, as well as either working, or attending AFI. I would really like to stay in contact with you however, so that we could meet at some point once I get out there. Thanks again.

[Hal Smith]

Film-making is such an incredibly expensive business at the upper levels that until one builds a reputation for oneself as competent and trustworthy you don't get good work. This explains all the need for networking and the necessity to know the etiquette and politics end of matters. Until people know you're "one of them" no-one is going to take a chance on you. A school that's well connected in the industry like AFI is probably worth it - but be prepared to be the hardest working, most talented, and student with the best attitude in your class, that's how you'll get noticed as an "up and comer". Attitude is very important, no-one wants to spend a long, hard working day around a griper or know-it-all. Be a Who, not a Grinch.

[Natalie Saito]

I'm considering joing the Local 600. I was wondering what the general thoughts of members might be about being a member. Is it worth being a member? Do you get a lot out of being a member? Any input would be great. Thanks, Mark

 

the same question i've asked..."is it worth it?" a friend of mine told me he quit local 600 because he didn't benefit...why pay if he can't make enough to offset the fees? true they don't guarantee you work..likely better opp to network. on the otherhand i have a friend that is busy with work and so far seems to being doing well. hmm..i guess it depends on the person.

[Brad Grimmett]

a friend of mine told me he quit local 600 because he didn't benefit...why pay if he can't make enough to offset the fees? true they don't guarantee you work..likely better opp to network.

If you're not on the union you can't do union work, so that's the rub. If you don't do any union work, and don't plan on doing any, then who cares. But if you do some union work, or are trying to get hired for union work, then you pretty much have to be in the union. It's not about networking....you don't have to have a union card to do that.

[Natalie Saito]

It's not about networking....you don't have to have a union card to do that.

 

i meant the people you meet on union shoots as opposed to the indie/low-budgets..niftier contacts.