Easton Sheahan-Lee Posted January 4, 2007 Share Posted January 4, 2007 Hi everyone, I'm making a 35-40 minute long ski movie in 16mm however we have used near to all of our budget purchasing film (Kodak 7201). Now I am looking to get a good camera to operate in cold conditions UNDER 300 USD. Any suggestions? I have looked at teh Krasnogorsk 3 alot however peopl have reported alot of problems like the perf not catching causing jumpy film. Takes cannot be re-done skiing so I need a reliable camera. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Alvin Ekarma Posted January 4, 2007 Share Posted January 4, 2007 How about a Scoopic M/MS? You can get those for a good price on Ebay. You'll be outside so f stop won't be a problem and it's pretty much idiot proof when it comes to loading. I had one and it never let me down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easton Sheahan-Lee Posted January 4, 2007 Author Share Posted January 4, 2007 I've been trying to find a scoopic but there haven't been any other than few for a couple thousand dollars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easton Sheahan-Lee Posted January 4, 2007 Author Share Posted January 4, 2007 As well if I am forced to go with the K3, is there any way to make it more reliable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Bowerbank Posted January 4, 2007 Share Posted January 4, 2007 ...we have used near to all of our budget purchasing film (Kodak 7201). Now I am looking to get a good camera... Interesting workflow...but anyway I wouldn't recommend the Scoopic if you're doing a lot of handheld stuff on the slopes. It has a nice little handle on it with the run button next to the thumb, but it's really top heavy and kinda awkward to operate and watch through the viewfinder at the same time. Also, you never know how good a lens you're going to get with a Scoopic. You can find Bolex's on eBay for real cheap as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen defilippi Posted January 4, 2007 Share Posted January 4, 2007 hi, have you considered a rental? You could get a decent lightweight & reliable 16mm camera for about that. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Dan Goulder Posted January 4, 2007 Premium Member Share Posted January 4, 2007 I see a Bolex in your future. It's cheap, easy, light, and practical for the ski slopes. You can get good results with it, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easton Sheahan-Lee Posted January 5, 2007 Author Share Posted January 5, 2007 Interesting workflow...but anyway We haven't already purchased it, we have worked out all of our budgeting through spreadsheets already including travel costs, accomidations, film EVERYTHING. With film being so damn expensive you can actually probably run over the cost of the camera 100x's buying film. Rental is out of the picture since it is over a whole winter with a varying schedule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Alvin Ekarma Posted January 5, 2007 Share Posted January 5, 2007 I've been trying to find a scoopic but there haven't been any other than few for a couple thousand dollars. Are you sure abou that? There always seems to be at least one Scoopic M or MS listed weekly at a reasonable price (under $500) but if you need a camera ASAP, I could see how you could be stuck. If you had time, I'd say get some auction sniping software to get a deal on a Scoopy but if not, get a bolex. Only get a K3 if you can get one that's already been upgraded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Charles MacDonald Posted January 5, 2007 Premium Member Share Posted January 5, 2007 I'm making a 35-40 minute long ski movie in 16mm however we have used near to all of our budget purchasing film (Kodak 7201). Now I am looking to get a good camera to operate in cold conditions UNDER 300 USD. Any suggestions? The other canadate that comes to mind when you are thinking reliable is of course my favorite camera, the filmo. They are made to stand up to batlefield conditions and if the lubrication is down with care should be ale to handle the cold without problems. (you may want to use VERY LIGHT synthetic Oil, but your camera tech can advise. The Filmo Does not have TTL focus and framing, but if you are actually trying to shoot and SKi you will be too busy to try to do that anyway.... The sping motor also means that batteries are not a concern. You will of course need a good lightmeter and be able to perset the focus your expected shot needs. Don't be too quick to write off the K3, like the saying goes some folks swear by them, and others swear AT them. You need to get one that has been gone over by a qualified Tech who can read Russian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member steve hyde Posted January 6, 2007 Premium Member Share Posted January 6, 2007 ...I used a Filmo with 7201 in the Peruvian Andes a few months ago. I shot in bad weather above 5000m. I am happy with the results although I had to rely heavily on a wide angle lens....almost exclusively (angeniuex 10mm retrofocus). Steve ...I used a Filmo with 7201 in the Peruvian Andes a few months ago. I shot in bad weather above 5000m. I am happy with the results although I had to rely heavily on a wide angle lens....almost exclusively (angeniuex 10mm retrofocus). The guys I know that shoot alot of skiing (for Warren Miller etc.) say that Arri S series cameras are the best low cost camera for these kinds of projects. Personally, If I was shooting skiing I would use a Beaulieu super 8 and shoot at 70fps.. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olex Kalynychenko Posted January 6, 2007 Share Posted January 6, 2007 Hi everyone, I'm making a 35-40 minute long ski movie in 16mm however we have used near to all of our budget purchasing film (Kodak 7201). Now I am looking to get a good camera to operate in cold conditions UNDER 300 USD. Any suggestions? I have looked at teh Krasnogorsk 3 alot however peopl have reported alot of problems like the perf not catching causing jumpy film. Takes cannot be re-done skiing so I need a reliable camera. Thanks! Krasnogersk-3 very reliable camera for shooting with low temperature. I use K-3 with -20 degree. Other idea - use Kransogrosk-1 ( 2 ) camera with prime wide angle lens 12.5 mm. But, all krasnorgosk cameras have spring motor and not work more 25 sec without re-loading of spring. If you wish set camera on hard hat, i can recommend very small size russian cameras Kiev-16 E. This 16 mm reflex cine camera with C-mount lens ( 20 mm ), 100 ft daylight spools and electrical motor. The camera have small size and weight. Other idea, use of russian Alpha-16 camera with spring motor. This is C-mount camera with semi-transparent mirror, have small weight. If you take away of semi-transparetnt mirror, you can have direct film track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Bowerbank Posted January 6, 2007 Share Posted January 6, 2007 We haven't already purchased it, we have worked out all of our budgeting through spreadsheets Ahhh, ok, makes sense :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easton Sheahan-Lee Posted January 7, 2007 Author Share Posted January 7, 2007 Heres another good question, I am also considering shooting a short within the near future, in terms of sync sound what type of camera are we talking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member David Mullen ASC Posted January 7, 2007 Premium Member Share Posted January 7, 2007 The cheapest sync-sound 16mm camera quiet enough for recording sound tend to be the 1960's era cameras like the Arri-16BL, CP16, Eclair NPR, Eclair ACL... Next generation was in the 1970's, like the Arri-SR1 and Aaton-LTR, and these tend to be more expensive. Don't know what Russian-made cameras fall into this category. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olex Kalynychenko Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 The cheapest sync-sound 16mm camera quiet enough for recording sound tend to be the 1960's era cameras like the Arri-16BL, CP16, Eclair NPR, Eclair ACL... Next generation was in the 1970's, like the Arri-SR1 and Aaton-LTR, and these tend to be more expensive. Don't know what Russian-made cameras fall into this category. The russian 16 mm professional cine cameras Kinor-16 SX-1M Kinor-16 SX-2M Kinor-16 R ( 4KSR ) Kinor-16-8R 16SP 2SR RUS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennis Kisilyov Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 Hi everyone, I'm making a 35-40 minute long ski movie in 16mm however we have used near to all of our budget purchasing film (Kodak 7201). Now I am looking to get a good camera to operate in cold conditions UNDER 300 USD. Any suggestions? I have looked at teh Krasnogorsk 3 alot however peopl have reported alot of problems like the perf not catching causing jumpy film. Takes cannot be re-done skiing so I need a reliable camera. Thanks! K-3 and Scoopics sell on ebay for about 300-500USD. Last few I was watching the Scoopic-M sold for 177 winning bid, while MS went for about 440USD from the "I-sold-it" lister. Here are two more current ones. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=330070853912 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=160071059954 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thanasis Diamantopoulos Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 The russian 16 mm professional cine camerasKinor-16 SX-1M Kinor-16 SX-2M Kinor-16 R ( 4KSR ) Kinor-16-8R 16SP 2SR RUS Hi OLEX Happy new year to you and to all I have never used a kinor 16 sx-1m or 2m camera but i know that the sound that comes out of the camera it is over 50 db how synk sound is that? NPR ,CP,ACL,BL you can get origonal sound from the interiors and having a lot of problems specialy from old cameras like that . I know that kinors are crystal sync but for sync sound a camera must be blimbed. Hi OLEXHappy new year to you and to all I have never used a kinor 16 sx-1m or 2m camera but i know that the sound that comes out of the camera it is over 50 db how synk sound is that? NPR ,CP,ACL,BL you can get origonal sound from the interiors and having a lot of problems specialy from old cameras like that . I know that kinors are crystal sync but for sync sound a camera must be blimbed. Correct me if i am wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olex Kalynychenko Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 Hi OLEXHappy new year to you and to all I have never used a kinor 16 sx-1m or 2m camera but i know that the sound that comes out of the camera it is over 50 db how synk sound is that? NPR ,CP,ACL,BL you can get origonal sound from the interiors and having a lot of problems specialy from old cameras like that . I know that kinors are crystal sync but for sync sound a camera must be blimbed. I don't know about 50 Db. The user manual of Kinor-16 camera wrote : " noise - not more 42 Db". The good serviced and adjusted camera can have less noise. I can set additional noise protection cover inside of body of camera too. You canuse additional outside sound blimp too. I don't have special device for measuring of noise, thats' why don't can give you real volume. The original 29EPSS motor of Kinor-16 camera have analog system of speed stabilization, this is not crystal sync or XTALL speed control. The original electroncis have precision of speed control 2.5% and have Pilot-Signal generator for sound recoder with Pilot Signal speed control ( like NAGRA ). If you need crystal sync speed motor, not problem, this is possible. The new version of motor electronics have microprocessor PID control ( not a simple XTALL control ) with high power output stage and many additional service function ( digital film counter, mirror disk parking, low speed test run, adjust of phase of speed, remote control and other ). If you need high quality sync sound recoding at shooting area, i recommend use of Arri 16 SR3 or Arri 416 cameras. But, the good idea to compare of price of cameras too. The one fiber screen of 416 have price near 1000 euros only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thanasis Diamantopoulos Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 I don't know about 50 Db. The user manual of Kinor-16 camera wrote : " noise - not more 42 Db". The good serviced and adjusted camera can have less noise. I can set additional noise protection cover inside of body of camera too. You canuse additional outside sound blimp too. I don't have special device for measuring of noise, thats' why don't can give you real volume. The original 29EPSS motor of Kinor-16 camera have analog system of speed stabilization, this is not crystal sync or XTALL speed control. The original electroncis have precision of speed control 2.5% and have Pilot-Signal generator for sound recoder with Pilot Signal speed control ( like NAGRA ). If you need crystal sync speed motor, not problem, this is possible. The new version of motor electronics have microprocessor PID control ( not a simple XTALL control ) with high power output stage and many additional service function ( digital film counter, mirror disk parking, low speed test run, adjust of phase of speed, remote control and other ). If you need high quality sync sound recoding at shooting area, i recommend use of Arri 16 SR3 or Arri 416 cameras. But, the good idea to compare of price of cameras too. The one fiber screen of 416 have price near 1000 euros only. Even 42 db is noisier than npr acl ,cp ,or even an old bl thats the right comparison and i was talking about camera noise. Even using a crystal sync motor you can not minimize the noise. I am not against the russian cameras i know how great images they create. I am looking now to purchaze a kinor 35h. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Cooper Posted January 8, 2007 Share Posted January 8, 2007 Ive taken a Krasnogorsk 3 to the snow fields to film skiing and snowboarding and I didnt experience any problems. However, I only exposed one 100ft film. There are reliable K3s around and also non reliable ones also - due to poor quality control at the factory that made these cameras. According to one source, the ones with the 'krasnogorsk 3' name written in English are the later ones and supposedly more reliable. The K3 does have a very good viewfinder - better than that of a Bolex and easier to focus. If you are planning on doing any time lapse shoots in your ski films, I have to confess that I havent been able to get my K3 to shoot single frame but I have heard from others that you get fogging with long interval times - though covering the lens and viewfinder between frames is said to fix this problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olex Kalynychenko Posted January 8, 2007 Share Posted January 8, 2007 Even 42 db is noisier than npr acl ,cp ,or even an old bl thats the right comparison and i was talking about camera noise. Even using a crystal sync motor you can not minimize the noise. I am not against the russian cameras i know how great images they create. I am looking now to purchaze a kinor 35h. We need divide of all cameras on studio cameras with big size, weight, special additional noise protection and hand held cameras with minimum size and weight. I know russian 35 mm cine camera Era 2-COS with noise 26-28Db, Kinor-35S - 28Db, Kinor-35H 32 Db. The user manual of Elcair ACL camera wrote : " better whet 32 Db at 1 metre ". I have no a ussian industrial standar of measuring of noise of cine cameras, but, i hear, we measuring of noise from distance of 0.5m. That's why, the West volume of noise can be a some different from russian volume of noise. For my personal experience of use Kinor-16 and Eclair ACl i can tell, the Kinor have not too more high volume of noise. From other side, the sync sound recording at shooing area need for dicumenatry shooting. The fiction film shoot with dubbing of shound track at professional sound recoding studio. From other side, the sync sound recording at shooting area to need for documentary shooting. The fiction film shoot with dubbing of sound track at professional sound recording studio. That's why, the every filmmaker choose of camera in accord with a personal requirements specifications. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennis Kisilyov Posted January 8, 2007 Share Posted January 8, 2007 According to one source, the ones with the 'krasnogorsk 3' name written in English are the later ones and supposedly more reliable. The K3 does have a very good viewfinder - better than that of a Bolex and easier to focus. If you are planning on doing any time lapse shoots in your ski films, I have to confess that I havent been able to get my K3 to shoot single frame but I have heard from others that you get fogging with long interval times - though covering the lens and viewfinder between frames is said to fix this problem. Wow, I've never seen one of those, I guess they were making them "for-export" only. Those types of product had higher quality control and a separate production line. Does anyone have any pics of "Krasnogors-3" english language version? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easton Sheahan-Lee Posted January 9, 2007 Author Share Posted January 9, 2007 Ive taken a Krasnogorsk 3 to the snow fields to film skiing and snowboarding and I didnt experience any problems. However, I only exposed one 100ft film. There are reliable K3s around and also non reliable ones also - due to poor quality control at the factory that made these cameras. According to one source, the ones with the 'krasnogorsk 3' name written in English are the later ones and supposedly more reliable. The K3 does have a very good viewfinder - better than that of a Bolex and easier to focus. If you are planning on doing any time lapse shoots in your ski films, I have to confess that I havent been able to get my K3 to shoot single frame but I have heard from others that you get fogging with long interval times - though covering the lens and viewfinder between frames is said to fix this problem. does it matter what color the front plate is? the one I am considering buying is Silver.....Does this make a difference? Krasnogorsk 3 is written in english so I am not sure..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Cohen Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 K-3 and Scoopics sell on ebay for about 300-500USD.Last few I was watching the Scoopic-M sold for 177 winning bid, while MS went for about 440USD from the "I-sold-it" lister. Here are two more current ones. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=330070853912 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=160071059954 You DO NOT want a Scoopic for shooting in the cold and the snow. For $300 get the K3. No batteries required. Practice loading it before going out. 95 percent of ALL registration problems are due to improper loading. Properly loaded, the K3 will beat anything in the $300 category. SC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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