Storyboard Quick or FrameForge 3D Studio?

[Craig Tarry]

Hi I'd like to know if anyone has used Storyboard Quick or FrameForge 3D Studio for storyboarding and there opinions pro and con.

- Or if you know of a web page that compares the two, please direct me there.

 

Both are about the same price. If there's another forum to better ask this question on, please let me know. Thanks - Craig

[Greg Gross]

Hello Craig! Storyboard Quick has tutorials at their site as how to use

program which may be helpful to you. I could not find a free demo at their

site. Storyboard Quick- www.powerproduction.com (they advertise it as

easy to use,easy to create quick storyboarding). Frame Forge 3D is at

www.write-brain.com/frame forge 3D_main.htm. They do have a free

demo for download(25mb) with limitations and you can not print what you

create. With this program you can actually build sets. Just food for thought

Craig, I write my own scripts for my own mini-dv movies(working as a pro-

ject to learn how to shoot best mini-dv possible). I use Final Draft 6.0 to

write my scripts and it does a great job formatting script(automated so to

say). I do not really storyboard rather I use a journal which is a shooting

schedule,sketch of scenes,notes pertaining to each scene. Sometimes if

the scene is greatly detailed my girlfriend(she's a filmaker too) will actually

draw a detailed storyboard for me,just of that scene. She's very artistic com-

pared to my stick figures. I just break my script down into 3 acts and sketch

scenes for each act in my journal along with notes as reminders of my self

created ideas, concerning how to shoot the scene. The funny thing is that a

lot of times something spontaneous happens anyway and we do not follow

the scene as written or sketched. The spontaneous thing turns out to make

for a better scene. Good luck with your search for storyboard program!

[Rob Belics]

I've played with both. Quick, iirc, was very amateurish and clunky making it practically useless. FrameForge was more sophisticated but why use it? You can draw with a pencil stick figures quicker and easier than wasting time learning another software package. The lens feature is handy for perspective viewing but an experienced DP can help with that.

 

I can see someone wanting this stuff because they aren't artists and can't draw but I only see it as a stumbling block for the creative process. You can't free flow draw a series of frames quickly when an idea strikes you.

 

Like I said, stick figures and boxes would probably serve better than wasting time with these things but I've only played with them a little and didn't go beyond that.

[Kim Sargenius]

Like I said, stick figures and boxes would probably serve better than wasting time with these things but I've only played with them a little and didn't go beyond that.

 

 

Second that -- have played a bit with Frame Forge and quickly decided that it's not worth my time. I say *my* time because the usefulness of this program will depend very much on who the storyboard is aimed at and the background of the user.

 

I can draw quick sketches in perspective and pretty decently matched to focal lengths -- they may take a few seconds to explain *exactly* what they're showing but for most people it works fine.

 

My girlfriend bought it because she can't draw and doesn't have much familiarity with different focal lengths -- it does help her realise the real life pros/cons of different focal lengths but takes a *long* time to get anything done.

 

 

HTH

 

 

Kim Sargenius

 

cinematographer

Sydney

[Matt Pacini]

I second that.

I can't remember which I used, but I downloaded a demo, and quickly decided it was a huge waste of time.

There are some things that using software doesn't make sense on, and this is one of them.

The images are just too generic to be useful, for instance, I needed a gun for the character to carry, but a pistol.

The only gun they had in the program was a freakin' machine gun.

It's one of those things you end up spending too much time screwing around with software.

That's one reason I pretty much abandoned MIDI for audio, after using it for almost 20 years, and just went with actually playing the stuff and digitally recording real live audio.

You just spend so much time screwing with the program, hunting down functions in menus, etc., that it interrupts the creative process, not embellishes it.

And I'm not great at drawing either, but I decided to buy a book on beginning figure drawing, since my time is better spent learning how to do that better.

That way, if I need to convey an idea on set with a sketch, I can just whip out a pen and do it.

Are you going to carry around a laptop, boot the thing, run the program and start messing with these programs when a 15 second drawing would do the same thing?

Computers are not solutions for EVERYTHING, and they definitely DO NOT make everything in the world easier!

 

Matt Pacini

[Kim Sargenius]

And I'm not great at drawing either, but I decided to buy a book on beginning figure drawing, since my time is better spent learning how to do that better.

 

 

Have you had a look at "Dynamic Figure Drawing" by Burne Hogarth? ( http://www.bookfinder4u.com/IsbnSearch.asp...777&mode=direct ) It's a great book because it emphasises the figure in motion, which was always a problem with a lot of other books I've had a look at, they're all drawing static figures.

 

I'm struggling the most with faces and heads myself and it looks like "The Artist's Complete Guide to Facial Expressions" by Gary Faigin is a great resource ( http://www.bookfinder4u.com/IsbnSearch.asp...285&mode=direct ).

 

Would love to hear other people's recommendations!

 

 

HTH

 

cheers,

 

Kim Sargenius

 

cinematographer

Sydney

[David Mullen ASC]

I learned how to draw storyboards partially by Burne Hogarth's great book but also from reading "How to Draw Comics The Marvel Way" by Stan Lee and John Buscema.

[Matt Pacini]

That's a pretty good referral, because David, your storyboards are fantastic!

Maybe if this whole DP thing doesn't work out, you have something to fall back on!

ha ha!

Is there the equivalent of the ASC for Storyboard Artists? yuk yuk!

 

Matt Pacini

[Laurent Andrieux]

In france we have a magazine specialized in story board, called... "storyboard", since about 2 years, do you have that in the US ?

 

I learned storyboard at Louis Lumière (thanks to M. Alain Aubert) andI think drawing sketches is certainly easier than using a software, even if you're not talented, but I would be interested into a very light tool that would permit to build mass plans (as seen from top) with doors, windows, dimensions and furniture sets, and viewing angles (field of view) only (according to focal lenght and format). Does such a thing exist ?is it included in the tools you were talking about ?

 

Also - I recon it's not about story board but may be related to this subject somehow, is there a light tool to sort of virtually play with light on simple objects or 3D caracters (or the set I would draw with the tool imagined above) to show students the basics of lighting : specific/diffuse, direction, contrast, backlight, 3 points... Would be great if designed for photo/cinematography (lumination values, albedo parameters and figures avaiable) and gel corrections virtually possible...

 

I heard of infographic more like tools like Maya or some others but I'm afraid that would be much to "big" for what I just want to do

[Bob Hayes]

I downloaded a demo of Frame Forge and found it technically pretty easy to use. Just pulling elements into a 3d environment. It?s fun to move the camera angles around to tell your story. You are pretty much creating a Computer Graphic world like they do on effects films. I found it fun and almost addicting to create little animated sequences. I do CGI and Motion Control work on ?CSI? and the animatics they give me look like the type of graphics I can create on Frame Forge. So it?s also an easy way for non CGI folks to learn about how Virtual Worlds are created.

 

It may sound like I am a big advocate of Frame Forge but I don?t know if it is the tool people are looking for. It is very time consuming. You could spend hours and hours just creating simple story boards. Although simple to use these programs require really good spatial skills to create these worlds. You also need to have pretty good life drawing skills to move and pose the characters in the frame in believable postures. And you are doing all this with a mouse. My recommendation is buy a #2 pencil and a pad of paper and start drawing. Buy a couple of books that show story boards from movies you like and try to copy them. Spend some time at the local comic book store looking for work you like. Currently I am into Pagulayan who draws Elektra. This kid understands lenses.

[David Mullen ASC]

Are there some simple drawing programs where you can sketch directly to the computer using some sort of electronic pen and pad?

[Carlos M. Icaza]

The new Tablet-PC show some promise in drawing hand stech.

 

There are pen based pointing device which act like a pen on programs, the best one is from Wacom, one of the products is called Intuos. Allows you to draw into a tablet and shows up on the screen.

 

Illustrator, Photoshop recognize the devices and also extend the recognition to understand pressure. The more pressure you apply to the pen into the tablet, the thicker the brush/pen, the faster, the thinner, the slower, the wider.

 

I have used them before and several artist friends of mine use them daily.

 

http://www.wacom.com

http://www.adobe.com/products/illustrator/main.html

 

Hope this helps.

 

C.-

[Carlos M. Icaza]

Shoot. Darn too fast on the submit buttom.

 

You can use the pen based devices without using such programs as Illustrator or Photoshop. If you have windows, you can use the built in paint program, if you have a mac, I think that several sketching programs are shipped with the computer for free. The only thing is that several of the products advance features will probably not be recognized.

 

C.-

[Craig Tarry]

Hey everyone! Well I'm really impressed by this forum and all the response I got to storyboarding. I just downloaded a Frame Forge demo and I'm playing around with it. I can sketch, but I've never been happy with the results. Not enough patience. That's why I got into digital composite art a while back, because I could put pictures together. Anyway thanks for all your input. Very helpful - Craig

[Craig Tarry]

Well Ok, I tried Frame Forge and I see what you mean. It's much faster just to draw. I'll just have to up my sketch game. Thanks Craig

[Ken Schafer]

My name is Ken Schafer, and I am the designer and Windows programmer of FrameForge 3D Studio so I will confess that I am a bit biased in favor of the software.

 

Let me start by saying that I don?t disagree with anyone that producing storyboards in FrameForge can be far more time-consuming than whipping out a quick sketch?especially if you aren't disciplined and you end up tweaking the angle on each finger or coloring in every part.

 

What I?d like to add is that I (and many others) feel there is value to be gotten out of the process which makes it worth the extra investment of time.

 

When we showed the program at a seminar at the ASC, the demo started with most of the DPs confessing that they hated storyboards?but the demo ended with enough of them impressed by it that the ASC as an organization now sells FrameForge 3d Studio on their website, and it?s the only software they do sell.

 

Why the change of heart? The answer has to do with WHY most of the ASC DP?s told us they hated storyboards. Inevitably, they said, you get on the set and the prize sequence which the director had labored over and had polished to a shine would be fundamentally unshootable. While the frame might look right on paper, to film it would require a camera to be put through a wall, or the apparently correct perspective that it was drawn with turns out to be wildly inaccurate, or the framing could be gotten, but to do so would require a 5mm lens which either isn?t available or introduces unacceptable distortion, or any of a host number of other issues.

 

In showing our program in the US and at Cannes, I can tell you that when I bring this up to virtually anyone who has shot film with storyboards they almost inevitably all start nodding?been there, done that, tossed pages of storyboards out the window?

 

So how is doing your storyboards in FrameForge different? Well, let?s start with the end product, the print-out. Sure, the frames print out with slightly stiff-looking (though we?re improving that!) actors that don?t have that jazzy dynamism that a hand-drawn frame can convey? but the FrameForge 3D Studio frames are dead-on realistic as to what the camera will see based on the physics of optics. If you set up a shot accurately in the FrameForge virtual world, you KNOW you can get that shot once you get on the set which means that your prep work time?though probably longer than if you?d just drawn it?will actually be useful and won?t have to be discarded once you get on the set and in the real world.

 

Secondly, in addition to the frames themselves, you get the focal length, camera height and angle of view used in each frame, plus an overhead blueprint view of the frame showing the camera setup. This latter printout can be an invaluable tool for figuring out the best order of shooting to minimize camera and lighting setups, thus making your shoot even more efficient.

 

Thirdly, while you are setting up your shots, you can tell the program about the limitations you are working with, what the film size/aspect ratio you are using, what lenses you have available, if there is a maximum height in a room you can put the camera and so on. All of which work towards again ensuring that your end product, the storyboard frames, is actually useful on the set.

 

The other issue which everyone is taking for granted is why you storyboard in the first place. Whether you draw your storyboards by hand or produce them in any other non-3D program, what you are doing is communicating (hopefully successfully!) your existing vision of the shot or sequence to the cast and crew. You are getting down what was already in your head but no more than that. Then you get on the set and suddenly see an angle you hadn?t thought off. You walk around the room and see that the slats of the bed create an interesting angle framed with the actor and suddenly your prep work will go out the window.

 

Will that kind of on-set spontaneity happen with storyboards generated in FrameForge? Sure. But it can also happen during the storyboarding itself. This is because you are not working in a 2D world that is just showing what you?d already thought of seeing, but rather a true 3D world build to accurate dimensions. Add to that the fact that you can use multiple cameras and it becomes a very common occurrence as you set up the shot you were thinking of getting, you?ll discover something new. Perhaps you?ll see an interesting angle or foreground object that you hadn?t thought of, or you?ll glance up at the monitor and be intrigued by the view through another camera, or you?ll just plain start experimenting to see what looks the best. But by doing it in a 3D world, it turns the act of creating storyboards from an exercise in communications to a dynamic, exploratory previsualization process.

 

A perfect example of this is a sequence I did for a demo. The scene was an inner city girl meeting her ?Big Sister? in the park only to be told by the Big Sister that she couldn?t do it any more. I had envisioned them meeting in the park, then going and sitting in a gazebo where they would chit-chat until finally the Big Sister broke the news.

 

As I was setting up the sequence however, I was forced to move the camera around to get a clear shot through the pillars of the gazebo when I suddenly realized that the pillars were actually an intrinsic part of the shot. They were the perfect visual representation of the emotional separation the characters were feeling: boxing the little girl in and separating her ex-Big Sister from her. By actively incorporating these pillars into my sequence, I could more effectively capture the emotional content of the scene in a way I simply hadn?t thought about, and certainly wouldn?t have discovered through traditional storyboarding. Once I realized what I had, I ended up delaying their entry into the gazebo and used the boxing in of the pillars as a foreshadowing of the ?break-up? that was coming.

 

Would I have discovered the same thing on the set? Quite possibly, though it would have then involved making the decision as to whether to toss out my original storyboards (and their investment in preparation) and figure it out on the fly or stick with the existing but less powerful storyboarded version. And it is always cheaper and more time-effective to make these sort of discoveries in the privacy of your own home than it is to do them on set with dollars ticking away by the minute.

 

Ultimately you?ll have to make the decision as to whether FrameForge fits in with how you work as a creative artist, and whether you find the value in spending the extra time in the preparation versus spending it on the set. But if you?ve read this far, I really appreciate the time and consideration you?ve given to my thoughts and wish you the best of luck with your filmmaking.

 

Sincerely,

 

Ken Schafer

FrameForge Web Page

FrameForge Community Site

[Jesse Rosato]

Just thought I'd throw in my 2 cents here. I dowloaded the Frame Forge demo, and I've been pretty impressed. I'm working on a project right now with a very hands-on EP (he's funding the film with his own cash), so I can show him the FrameForge boards and he can understand where going with the look of the movie. It does take some time to put these things together, but once you have all your pieces in place, it's really easy to play with your angles and framing. I'd say it's definitely more a director's tool than a DoP's, just because there are no real lighting controls on the program.

 

 

-Jesse

[Guest coolbreeze]

Ken,

 

Will future versions of FrameForge have the ability to animate 3D moves through its virtual sets? Also the ability to export those pre-vis / animations, rather than stills, to quicktime would be very helpfull.

 

Stephen Murphy,

Steadicam Owner/Operator

Dublin, Ireland.

info@steadicamsteve.com

[Laurent Andrieux]

Hi,

 

I posted this about a month ago, and didn't get much comments nor answers...

 

Would Ken Schafer give me a tip ?

 

 

In france we have a magazine specialized in story board, called... "storyboard", since about 2 years, do you have that in the US ?

 

I learned storyboard at Louis Lumière (thanks to M. Alain Aubert) andI think drawing sketches is certainly easier than using a software, even if you're not talented, but I would be interested into a very light tool that would permit to build mass plans (as seen from top) with doors, windows, dimensions and furniture sets, and viewing angles (field of view) only (according to focal lenght and format). Does such a thing exist ?is it included in the tools you were talking about ?

 

Also - I recon it's not about story board but may be related to this subject somehow, is there a light tool to sort of virtually play with light on simple objects or 3D caracters (or the set I would draw with the tool imagined above) to show students the basics of lighting : specific/diffuse, direction, contrast, backlight, 3 points... Would be great if designed for photo/cinematography (lumination values, albedo parameters and figures avaiable) and gel corrections virtually possible...

 

I heard of infographic more like tools like Maya or some others but I'm afraid that would be much to "big" for what I just want to do

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Ken Schafer]

Will future versions of FrameForge have the ability to animate 3D moves through its virtual sets?

 

We plan to. Whether this feature makes it into Version II is still on the table, as it were, but we definitely want to make the move in that direction.

 

Also the ability to export those pre-vis / animations, rather than stills, to quicktime would be very helpful.

 

Right now, in the current version, you can play the stills as a slide show with the ability to define each frame's duration down to a tenth of a second. You can also define several frames as being all part of the same shot and the program will automatically do dissolves between them during the slide show so as to convey the sense of camera/actor movement. This slide show can be exported as a flash animation, which we had chosen as our format of choice because it is much smaller than Quicktime.

 

That said, due to user requests, we do have plans to add a QuickTime export. I must confess I don't see the advantage of QuickTime over Flash and I'd love someone to enlighten me here... :)

[Ken Schafer]

I posted this about a month ago, and didn't get much comments nor answers...

 

Would Ken Schafer give me a tip ?

 

Mais bien sur.

 

I would be interested into a very light tool that would permit to build mass plans (as seen from top) with doors, windows, dimensions and furniture sets, and viewing angles (field of view) only (according to focal lenght and format). Does such a thing exist ?is it included in the tools you were talking about ?

 

With the exception of "very light", FrameForge does EXACTLY that. You typically start building your set in a top-down view where you drag in walls (which can be sized to exact dimensions) with doors, windows and so on. Put in props such as chairs, tables, beds etc and position them where you like.

 

You set your film format and aspect ratio (and optionally zoom limitations and/or avialable primes) and then the program first limits the shots which you can set up to your available lenses and then also reports the focal length and angle of view at all times. The angle of view is also shown as a gray triangle on the overhead view so that you can visually see it.

 

Also - I recon it's not about story board but may be related to this subject somehow, is there a light tool to sort of virtually play with light on simple objects or 3D caracters (or the set I would draw with the tool imagined above) to show students the basics of lighting : specific/diffuse, direction, contrast, backlight, 3 points... Would be great if designed for photo/cinematography (lumination values, albedo parameters and figures avaiable) and gel corrections virtually possible...

 

As a previous poster noted, the lighting capabilities in FrameForge are virtually non-existant. Although this MAY change in the future, it is not our primary focus and I make no promises as to when or if real lighting will be added.

 

- Ken

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

There are software tools for simulating intelligent lighting, but that's mainly a programming tool for event lighting.

 

Phil

[Guest coolbreeze]

We plan to. Whether this feature makes it into Version II is still on the table, as it were, but we definitely want to make the move in that direction.

 

Thanks Ken,

 

If i thought that version 2 would have this feature id buy it straight away. Ive tried the demo version and i think its a great piece of software, BUT, before i buy i would need it to have 3D camera move capabilities.

What other new features will be in version 2 and when is it due for release? What other expansion packs are in the works?

Another Feature that would be neat would be the ability to export it as a Final Cut Pro or Premiere compatible file so that you could edit the shots with music. Or is that possible in the current version?

[Ken Schafer]

If i thought that version 2 would have this feature id buy it straight away. Ive tried the demo version and i think its a great piece of software, BUT, before i buy i would need it to have 3D camera move capabilities.

 

If what you're looking for is the 3D Camera Move rather than actor animation then you pretty much can do it in the current version. Just snap multiple frames as you move the camera and then flag them as one continuous shot. When you show the slide-show it will do dissolves between the still frames, giving you a fairly realistic sense of camera motion.

 

What other new features will be in version 2 and when is it due for release?

 

We're still locking that down but what's definitely in it are facial expressions, non-skin-tight clothing (i.e. dresses), easier posing of actors... and a bunch of other really cool stuff which I could tell you about but then I'd have to kill you. :) And hopefully in spring of 2005.

 

What other expansion packs are in the works?

 

Hospital, Rich and Famous (limos, actors in tuxes etc.), Sports... etc. I'm not really sure when the next one will be released as most of our effort is focused on Version II.

 

Another feature that would be neat would be the ability to export it as a Final Cut Pro or Premiere compatible file so that you could edit the shots with music. Or is that possible in the current version?

 

That is possible in the current version. You'd just export all the shots as JPEGS (and you can specify the resolution) and then you can bring them into any of these types of programs and edit to your heart's content!

[Guest coolbreeze]

Great Ken, thanks!