Great News, A Production Hold

[Mike Hunt]

I am a reservation holder. I am happy for the delay too. I can continue to shoot with the gear I have, and I will do just that. But guys- give me a break. This is very good news to know that they are making this camera as perfect as they can.

 

I shoot on the HD 100 and I am sick and tire of things being obsolete right after I buy them. I think the red is perfect for me. I really don't want to get into all the reasons why, but I just know it will change some of the ways we do things on our productions.

 

We are not stopping anything. We will continue, but hats off to Jim and his team for making this camera the best it can be.

[Matthew W. Phillips]

...I am sick and tire of things being obsolete right after I buy them.

 

I agree with you. Why do you think most of this forum shoots film? Gear that people bought 40 years ago is still being used.

 

I don't know how RED is going to stop from becoming obsolete. Even with a modular design, I'm sure that at some point there will be a RED II if they have enough success to warrant it.

[Keith Walters]

If I had pre-ordered one, I would see the press release as good news.

 

I have a JVC BR-HD 50U (it's a deck not a camera) that has had two firmware updates that I did not know about. The deck just completely gave out (meaning the power just died) after only a hundred hours of use. I recall flipping a switch on the front of the deck a couple of times and the deck just instantly stopped working and wouldn't power back up. The deck was actually playing a tape at the time when it just stopped working. It left the tape wrapped around the heads.

 

This is the kind of firmware quirk that I would rather be fixed BEFORE I receive the deck. On my service receipt it says that I would accept a repair up to the price of 1,650 dollars. I was never asked, maybe I don't understand what they mean, but it sounds like they think they can go as high as the cost of the unit when estimating the repair. I can't see paying more than 200 bucks for what happened. It will also cost me to (2) 125 mile round trips and a rental of another deck while this one is being serviced.

 

All I know is this is the first time in 20 years of using any videotape machine that I had a video deck just power down and never power back up, and we're talking thousands of hours of actual tape editiing. In this instance, I was just playing back the tape.

 

In my opinion 2,000 dollars pre-order price is not a significant amount to have to deal with delays that will actually make the product more reliable when it comes out.

 

Pretty much par for the course these days.

 

I worked for a certain well-known electronics manufacturer for a while, on their customer helpline section. (I won't name names, because this might only be a local problem, but somehow I don't think so).

 

I have heard that the occupation with the highest suicide rate is dentists, closely followed by call centre operators. I don't know if that's really true, but I could well believe it!

 

I only took the job because they told me that at some point, the consumer and broadcast helplines were to be combined, and my broadcast background would be invaluable. I actually turned down a better paying job because I thought that working for them would be an excellent way for me to get back "up to speed" with the latest technology, both consumer and professional.

 

But it rapidly turned into a sad joke. Training turned out to be minimal to non-existent; most of the operators had never even laid eyes on most of the equipment they were supposed to be giving assistance with! All they had were PDF files of the operator manuals on a computer. The only reason I was able to get any hands-on familiarity with most of their products was that I knew the manager of a major appliance store, who let me come in my spare time and play with some of the items!

 

They had numerous generations of HD digital receiving equipment and personal music players, which were routinely shipped with sometimes severe software bugs.

 

Imagine having to sit there day after day telling consumers that they will have to take the appliance THEY HAVE JUST BOUGHT and paid a premium price for, down to a service centre (of which there are no more than two in most capital cities), and then wait an unknown number of days for a software upgrade. Which half the time either failed to fix the problem or introduced new ones (or both).

 

Or having to tell people over and over again, that downloading the latest software version for their music player is going to fix its problems for sure, just like the last five sure-fire fixes.

 

Or that 12 months warranty means 12 months, even if your product is a $20,000 plasma TV that is now beyond economical repair, after only 3 years. (Oh all right, they'll give you a small trade-in on a new LCD TV!) Or a two-year-old DVD recorder which only works with 1X or 2X DVD blanks, which are no longer available from them or anybody else.

 

And then came the day they announced that we would be giving assistance with professional and broadcast equipment as well. There was absolutely zero training, all they did was change the phone numbers of the service department, so nobody could directly contact them any more, and re-route all calls to the consumer call centre. Well, there was one difference, the consumer helpline was a 1300-prefix number, which means you can call anywhere in the country for a local call charge, while the professional helpline was the same number with an 1800-prefix, which means it's a free call from anywhere in the country... <_<

 

Originally there were separate specialists in computers and AV equipment, but when the big change came everybody was suddenly expected to take all consumer calls, and broadcast/professional as well. If professional callers were extremely lucky, their call might come through to me and they would get some sort of sensible conversation, but usually they would be talking to somebody whose understanding of video is limited to vaguely understanding what the yellow-red-white sockets on the back of a DVD player are for!

 

The prescribed procedure basically consisted of getting their contact details, e-mailing these to the professional division, and telling the caller someone would phone them back, which sometimes happened if they thought they were important enough. More often they were not, and then they would be back on the phone the next day demanding to know whay why nobody had called them.

 

It's hard to believe that any "Name" company thinks it can continue to trade on its name alone, and give next to no after-sales service, particularly in the age of the Internet forum.

 

Jannard won't have to work terribly hard to outdo people like them!

[Brad Grimmett]

Exactly what "claims" are you accusing me of making?

I believe I stated exactly what I meant in my previous post.

(In other words you insist on quoting exceptions as though they were the rule)

What exceptions? Panavisions cameras are working all the time on big and small projects. Seems more like the rule than the exception to me.

Anyway:

The purported reason for Panavision's existence is to make a profit for its owners.

To my knowledge, Panavision has not made an operating profit in for the last two decades and before Ron Perelman took it private, they owed over $500 million in bond debts. (Since its now a private company they don't have to issue detailed financial statements, so we don't know what the current situation is).

OK, great. Now what does this have to do with anything?

Which suggests that Digital Cinematography is not the magic bullet is was supposed to be.

But according to all you RedHeads the Red is the magic bullet to all cinematography.

"Oh, and almost every sitcom on television shoots on the F900."

 

Hardly surprising, they are televsion cameras after all.

Are you saying that television doesn't employ cinematography? Or are you inferring that Red has no interest in having it's cameras working in TV? Really, what's your point?

 

One more thing Keith....this isn't the place to make extremely long rants about working in a call center. I'm sure you can find another forum where other call center workers will feel sorry for you. Let's keep in related to cinematography here.

[Keith Walters]

But according to all you RedHeads the Red is the magic bullet to all cinematography.

 

Where did you get the idea I was a redhead?

 

The most I've ever said about the RED is that appears to be a competent enough camera, at a very attractive price. I have tried to point out that while it's not exactly a "4K" camera, resolution-wise, it should be quite a lot better than the 2K that some people insist on, but that applies to all modern Bayer-masked cameras, not just the RED.

 

I have never implied that access a cheap camera is going to somehow smash through some mythical "celluloid ceiling". I've been hearing that particular line of B.S. for the past 25 years or so; I'd be the last one to promote that idea.

 

Are you saying that television doesn't employ cinematography? Or are you inferring that Red has no interest in having it's cameras working in TV? Really, what's your point?

 

I have no idea what you're talking about.

 

One more thing Keith....this isn't the place to make extremely long rants about working in a call center. I'm sure you can find another forum where other call center workers will feel sorry for you. Let's keep in related to cinematography here.

 

I was replying to a previous poster about the poor quality of a piece of broadcast equipment and the standard of service he received. I was just pointing out that this is far from unusual. Why is one's negative experiences with equipment manufacturer service not relevant to a cinematography forum? Will it be so bad if it prompts people to ask about what sort of after-sales service they will be getting? (Although anybody who fails to ask these types of question is clearly not a seasoned professional.)

 

There has been concern expressed about the level of after-sales service that will be offered by RED once production gets into full swing. The only real comment I was making was that RED's after-sales wouldn't have to be particularly good to be better than what is currently offered by some of their big-name competitors. Having done enough of that sort of thing myself, I know how it should be done, how well they handle it in practice remains to be seen.

[Brad Grimmett]

QUOTE (Brad Grimmett @ Oct 28 2007, 09:24 AM) *

Are you saying that television doesn't employ cinematography? Or are you inferring that Red has no interest in having it's cameras working in TV? Really, what's your point?

I have no idea what you're talking about.

I was asking questions (I thought that was pretty obvious) and trying to find out what you meant by the other comments you made, but it appears that you just don't want to answer them.

It seems you just want to bash Panavision and talk about working in a call center (a non cinematography call center), and I'm not really interested in either of those topics.

If RedHead isn't a proper description of you, I'm sorry. Most of the RedHeads use very similar language to the language that you've been using, so I don't think it was a stretch to call you that.

[Zak Forsman]

every time I come back to this site after a long hiatus, i'm quickly reminded why I must have been turned off to using it as a resource in the first place. the bickering in this place is worse than my grandmother's sewing circle.

[Brad Grimmett]

every time I come back to this site after a long hiatus, i'm quickly reminded why I must have been turned off to using it as a resource in the first place. the bickering in this place is worse than my grandmother's sewing circle.

Strange how this "bickering" only happens in threads about Red. There is virtually no arguing in any of the other forums. I wonder why that is......

[Stephen Williams]

Strange how this "bickering" only happens in threads about Red. There is virtually no arguing in any of the other forums. I wonder why that is......

 

Hi Brad,

 

The people who complain about 'bickering' usually have rather low post count. They never have anything useful to add in this or any other part of the forum.

 

Stephen

[Keith Walters]

The RED folder is somewhat unusual for a number of reasons, top of the list being the sheer number of posts about a product that for a long time did not actually exist.

 

One source of so-called bickering was the number of posters who insisted on trying to start discussions about what the RED "will" do, rather than what it could potentially do, if the design worked out.

 

Another source of contention was the totally unrealistic notions of what such a camera would allow relatively (or totally) inexperienced operators to achieve, when it finally became available. (Together with the overly optimistic notions of how much it would cost to get a workable RED package together).

 

Nobody here "hates" the RED; it's an inanimate object which in the right hands could produce a cinematic masterpiece, and in the wrong hands, a piece of utter rubbish. Just like any other camera.

 

The RED the first of a new generation of cameras; but it certainly won't be the last. I would have designed it somewhat differently myself, but market forces will eventually decide who is right.

[Brad Grimmett]

Hi Brad,

 

The people who complain about 'bickering' usually have rather low post count. They never have anything useful to add in this or any other part of the forum.

 

Stephen

Good point. How would they know what the rest of this site is like when they have no interest in participating in the part of the forum that doesn't involve Red?

[Zak Forsman]

Good point. How would they know what the rest of this site is like when they have no interest in participating in the part of the forum that doesn't involve Red?

this isn't exactly the most inclusive place on the internet, guys.

[Zak Forsman]

besides, i've been making a feature. what do you think?

 

Heart of Now -- footage preview

[Brad Grimmett]

this isn't exactly the most inclusive place on the internet, guys.

It's actually very inclusive, and open to anyone and everyone.

Many of the members here don't suffer fools easily, so when things start getting out of hand or silly, someone generally jumps on them pretty quickly. There is a lot of that in the Red forum because of how many stupid things people have said in this particular forum. It appears that many of the people that come here to post in the Red forum have no interest in the rest of this site and just come here to shoot their mouth off and start trouble. That sort of thing will obviously not go unnoticed around here.

There are plenty of other websites to talk about Red. If you don't like this one go somewhere else.

[Keith Walters]

besides, i've been making a feature. what do you think?

 

Heart of Now -- footage preview

What exactly are we looking at? Is this shot with the RED?

 

Those are nice images but with all due respect, the problem with this sort of "teaser" footage is that there is nothing that compels you to include any shots that are not so good.

 

With a normal feature, somebody will basically say: "I want this, this, this and this. Get on with it."

If you are unable to shoot a scene the way the producer (or whoever) expects, you have to have a very good explanation; you can't just cross that scene off the script.

 

The first real test of the RED will be when we see a full-length "mainstream" feature shot entirely with it, in cinemas, "warts and all". That day can't be too far off, surely.

[Zak Forsman]

What exactly are we looking at? Is this shot with the RED?

 

Those are nice images but with all due respect, the problem with this sort of "teaser" footage is that there is nothing that compels you to include any shots that are not so good.

 

With a normal feature, somebody will basically say: "I want this, this, this and this. Get on with it."

If you are unable to shoot a scene the way the producer (or whoever) expects, you have to have a very good explanation; you can't just cross that scene off the script.

 

The first real test of the RED will be when we see a full-length "mainstream" feature shot entirely with it, in cinemas, "warts and all". That day can't be too far off, surely.

 

no, sorry. that's an HVX200. probably shouldn't have posted it here. it's off topic. the truth is this is the "warts" footage. the really, really compelling footage i'm keeping a lid on until we are finished with editorial and move ahead with our marketing campaign. this was put together just so people could catch a little glimpse of what we had done. sorry about the red/non-red confusion.

Edited December 2, 2007 by Zak Forsman

[Zak Forsman]

It's actually very inclusive, and open to anyone and everyone.

Many of the members here don't suffer fools easily, so when things start getting out of hand or silly, someone generally jumps on them pretty quickly. There is a lot of that in the Red forum because of how many stupid things people have said in this particular forum. It appears that many of the people that come here to post in the Red forum have no interest in the rest of this site and just come here to shoot their mouth off and start trouble. That sort of thing will obviously not go unnoticed around here.

There are plenty of other websites to talk about Red. If you don't like this one go somewhere else.

i came to this site seeking more info about red, but i'm what you would call... camera or platform agnostic. filmmaking is a very fluid, almost improvisational, endeavor for me. and my first impression was the Red forum here. forgive me. posts elsewhere in the forum seemed to reflect a very rigid way of thinking about cinematography. the first impression of this place was a bad one for me. i'm giving it a second chance. will you give me a second chance?

Edited December 2, 2007 by Zak Forsman

[Brad Grimmett]

my first impression was the Red forum here. forgive me. posts elsewhere in the forum seemed to reflect a very rigid way of thinking about cinematography. the first impression of this place was a bad one for me. i'm giving it a second chance.

It sounds like you just don't like the forum very much. But hey, if you can learn something and contribute then I don't see why you wouldn't be welcome.

[Brian Drysdale]

i came to this site seeking more info about red, but i'm what you would call... camera or platform agnostic. filmmaking is a very fluid, almost improvisational, endeavor for me. and my first impression was the Red forum here. forgive me. posts elsewhere in the forum seemed to reflect a very rigid way of thinking about cinematography. the first impression of this place was a bad one for me. i'm giving it a second chance. will you give me a second chance?

 

Everyone has their own way of working. Unfortunately, most productions above a certain size start to need pre planning otherwise they just fall apart. Often improvisation fits into these plans once production is underway, but the schedule can place limits on what you can do.

 

I don't know about things being rigid, there have been some wacky suggestions around.