Great News, A Production Hold

[Tim Carroll]

For those of you who may not have seen this:

 

We are on a Production Hold. But this time, we think you will appreciate it.

 

1. We are implementing a new daughter board to the sensor. The result is increased dynamic range and reduced noise (incredible as that may seem) over serial numbers 1-100 with no downside. This improvement affects all frame rates at or below 25fps. This is a major breakthrough for RED and I am sure will be of great benefit to all camera owners.

 

2. We have developed a new stainless steel PL mount system that is user adjustable, stable and does not use shims. It is as close to a religious experience as a lens mount gets.

 

3. We are taking time to enable more features and stabilize the firmware. We have a few more bugs than we like with each new build. The firmware should be finished about the same time we execute the new daughter board and PL mount.

 

We will retrofit all shipped cameras (1-100) with these changes at our expense then begin production again.

 

We have a production line fully operational that is stocked with parts ready to go as soon as we can implement these improvements. The cameras affected most are 101-200.

 

We made the decision today to hold production so we have the fewest amount of cameras to retrofit. I do not have a new confirmed schedule, but will post one as soon as we know exactly where we stand. It is most likely that 101-200 will begin shipping November 30th and 201-600 will begin shipping December 10th.

 

We believe we can make all these changes with this minor schedule impact even though the fire generated ash has contaminated our clean rooms and will take a week to fix. The fires still rage here and ash is everywhere.

 

We appreciate your patience. These changes and additions will greatly increase the capability and convenience of the RED ONE for all users. This is a perfect example of the RED ONE becoming a "next generation" camera for all our users without any additional cost.

 

Jim

[Gary McClurg]

I sent a friend, a guy who would like to buy the camera an email two days ago. I asked him if he had heard anything. He said he hadn't and he asked me why I was asking.

 

I replied back that lately everytime someone comes here to pick a fight two days later we hear of a delay or something is wrong with the camera... and here it is two days later and the camera has been delayed

Edited October 25, 2007 by Gary McClurg

[Tim Carroll]

Not a RED fan by any means, but I do feel for those guys. Trying to get a camera up and into production, especially one with the complexity of what they are trying to accomplish, that is really a challenge.

 

I've heard from a number of sources that the PL mount was an issue and since I service Arriflex cameras and know how critical the FFD is on a film camera, I can only imagine that it is as critical on the RED. Glad they're getting that fixed.

 

Hope it works out for them,

-Tim

[Phil Rhodes]

What makes you think that camera is more complex than any other?

 

It doesn't even do onboard demosaic; it's really quite a lot simpler that many others.

 

Phil

[Max Jacoby]

Since when is a production hold great news? Love the spindoctoring ;)

 

To be honest none of this is surprising (and I don't mean this in a negative way so don't try to pick a fight), their release schedule has always been too ambitious. The first cameras and lenses were basically beta cameras that got sold to customers before all the bugs and problems were ironed out. At least they are owning up to the mistakes and are fixing it free of charge.

[Evan Owen]

What makes you think that camera is more complex than any other?

 

It doesn't even do onboard demosaic; it's really quite a lot simpler that many others.

 

Phil

 

I don't see how it's any more complex either. It's just very different. What makes it more difficult (IMHO) is the size of the team and the short development cycle they've attempted.

 

It does do onboard demosaic (for the LCD and HD-SDI/HDMI preview). It just doesn't record the demosaiced data, thankfully.

Edited October 25, 2007 by Evan Owen

[Tim Carroll]

What makes you think that camera is more complex than any other?

 

It doesn't even do onboard demosaic; it's really quite a lot simpler that many others.

 

Phil

 

Phil,

 

If it was being developed by Panasonic or Sony, I would agree with you. And I really know very little about RED the company or the camera, but I do know Jim Jannard as the force behind Oakley sunglasses, having dealt with his products since the mid 1980's, and when I heard a couple of years ago that he was going to try to do this with the RED camera, my thought was that he certainly had the marketing ability to do this, but I wasn't so sure he had the engineering and electronics part of the project covered. And I wasn't so sure the team had a clear understanding of how technically difficult a camera like this was to develop. Sony and Panasonic did not get where they are overnight, they built on decades of technology development. Besides the marketing campaign, there is very little similarity between sunglasses and a state of the art digital video camera.

 

But again, I know very little about RED the company or how they went about developing this camera.

 

-Tim

[Gary McClurg]

But again, I know very little about RED the company or how they went about developing this camera.

-Tim

 

It could be wild gossip who knows... but I've heard that some say that if Jannard would hire a few more people on the staff who have done this before... he would get things done quicker... I'm not sure how the person but it... spend the extra money and get it done... and this was from a person who was suppose to get their camera in the next shipment...

 

Leaving out names to protect the innocent... :lol: I'm sure they want their camera... and was joking about the last bit... :lol:

[Tim Carroll]

Since when is a production hold great news? Love the spindoctoring ;)

 

 

If you want to see the genius of Jim Jannard's marketing of the RED camera, just read one page of the replies to his announcement posted above about the production delay. Folks are falling all over themselves telling him how great it is that the cameras are delayed (these are people who gave him $2000 deposits up to a year ago). They couldn't be happier:

 

RedUser.net forum page

 

Amazing,

-Tim

[Matthew W. Phillips]

If you want to see the genius of Jim Jannard's marketing of the RED camera, just read one page of the replies to his announcement posted above about the production delay. Folks are falling all over themselves telling him how great it is that the cameras are delayed (these are people who gave him $2000 deposits up to a year ago). They couldn't be happier:

 

RedUser.net forum page

 

Amazing,

-Tim

 

I thought these people were going to even the score with Hollywood? Looks to me that they are waiting around. I would rather shoot on film in the now than wait. For that $2,000 deposit, plus interest that I could've gotten in a CD over the last year, I could pull off a decent short. My Super 8 short I'm working on only has a budget of $800.00. I could've shot 16mm with that extra cash.

 

When you said amazing, you really nailed it. This guy could make a felon happy about getting denied parole.

[don donatello]

get your facts straight ....

a year ago it was $1000 for a reservation not 2000 ...

also note that those that did put down 1000 a year ago get $2500 off accessories ...so you tell me what bank you can deposit 1000 into a CD and when you withdraw it you get your 1000 + 2500 ?? ....

also note that if one decided they do not want the camera RED will give them back 1200 - again you tell me what bank is paying 20% interest on 1000 ... the only accounts that i know about paying 5% require 10K +

 

"$2,000 deposit, plus interest that I could've gotten in a CD over the last year, I could pull off a decent short. My Super 8 short I'm working on only has a budget of $800.00. I could've shot 16mm with that extra cash. "

 

so exactly why didn't you shoot 16mm with the extra cash from that CD ???

[Tim Carroll]

If what our new member donatello (by the way, please follow forum's rules by using your full name) says about the deposit one year ago being only $1000 (and I have no way of knowing if this is true or not), then I stand corrected.

 

And since those who gave RED $1000 (or $2000) for a deposit on a camera up to a year ago, are now more than happy that the delivery of said camera is being delayed for an indeterminate amount of time,

 

I do not have a new confirmed schedule, but will post one as soon as we know exactly where we stand. It is most likely that 101-200 will begin shipping November 30th and 201-600 will begin shipping December 10th. -Jim Jannard

 

I would say that the folks at RED have nothing to worry about any of these customers wanting to cancel their deposits and get their money back.

 

Like I said, marketing genius.

 

-Tim

[Matthew W. Phillips]

get your facts straight ....

a year ago it was $1000 for a reservation not 2000 ...

also note that those that did put down 1000 a year ago get $2500 off accessories ...so you tell me what bank you can deposit 1000 into a CD and when you withdraw it you get your 1000 + 2500 ?? ....

also note that if one decided they do not want the camera RED will give them back 1200 - again you tell me what bank is paying 20% interest on 1000 ... the only accounts that i know about paying 5% require 10K +

 

"$2,000 deposit, plus interest that I could've gotten in a CD over the last year, I could pull off a decent short. My Super 8 short I'm working on only has a budget of $800.00. I could've shot 16mm with that extra cash. "

 

so exactly why didn't you shoot 16mm with the extra cash from that CD ???

 

I dont have a $2,000 CD. I'm saying that if I was one of the RED reservation holders who did (BTW, although the deposit was $1,000, that was the camera only...many people reserved the lens too, making the deposit greater), I would have done better to put my money in a CD and shoot on 16mm. Although you tell me now that I should have put my money in the bank of Jannard and got 20%. Wow, maybe I should have.

 

You miss the point Tim was making. He was showing that people are all too happy to allow JJ to take his sweet time despite his pretentious delivery schedule. If Kodak did such a thing, everyone would be on them like flies on dung.

 

I don't understand why posters like you come on this forum and defend RED so fervently but do not have the courage to give your real name. Tim, I, and many others here put our reputations on the line everytime we speak. Maybe at times we speak foolishly, but at least we have to stand by our words. That is the idea Tim Tyler had, I'm sure, when he implemented the real name thing. I think it's wonderful that he does so. You don't honestly expect us to believe that your real name is Don Donetello, do you? That's like me saying I'm Matt Matthews.

[don donatello]

"You miss the point Tim was making. He was showing that people are all too happy to allow JJ to take his sweet time despite his pretentious delivery schedule."

 

Red has always stated everything subject to change .. so what ! if RED delays the delivery and the persons that put down a deposit are OK with it - if they don't like it they do have choices - wait , complain, buy another camera or any combination ..

i know on the projects i work on we all have good intentions on dates, equipment ..we all like to think we can do it and many times we do and sometimes we don't ...

 

"I don't understand why posters like you come on this forum and defend RED so fervently"

 

1st i was pointing out that reservationist from a year ago are ending up with a good deal on their down payment ... now on this post i'm defending RED reservationist ... why should it bother you if they are OK with the trade off of a delay and a improved camera ??

 

 

"but do not have the courage to give your real name. "You don't honestly expect us to believe that your real name is Don Donetello, do you?"

 

now before i would make that kind of statement i would at least try google ...

it's the name on my driver license .. and it is not the name i use in business ...according to cinematograpghy.com guidelines i cannot use my business/credit name .. i have to say i do like the sound of Matt Matthews ...

 

Tim - did we meet in Portland maybe 4-5 years ago ... maybe something to do with vinton studio's

[Brian Drysdale]

Don is a man well known for his Hawaiian shirts over on DVinfo.

 

I don't know the details of the RED marketing plan, but I assume it was that by involving people at an early stage they would build a loyal hardcore customer base to a product that was starting from scratch. The deposits were deemed to be safe guarded by a company owner who, if the whole enterprise went belly up, would want to protect his good name and had the personal resources to refund these deposits.

 

However, the downside to this seems been a pressure to get production cameras out to customers at stage when established manufacturers would still be involved in the pre-production models and making them fully functional. That's not to say that production models from the established manufacturers don't have problems, it took JVC a few months to get the HD 100 sorted. In aviation, the production model of the F22 fighter had a problem when it crossed the international date line for the first time: its navigation system crashed.

 

What seems to have come out from is that these data based HD cameras are more difficult to get to a mature stage than it first appeared. SI have had a few delays as well and the Infinity, from an established manufacturer, is still being worked on behind the scenes, although I've read a good report on it for green screen work.

[Tim Carroll]

Tim - did we meet in Portland maybe 4-5 years ago ... maybe something to do with vinton studio's

 

Not me, I've only been out here a couple of years. There's alot of Tim Carroll's out there.

 

-Tim

[Gary McClurg]

...according to cinematograpghy.com guidelines i cannot use my business/credit name ..

 

Sounds like my cousin... he can't use Paul Newman in business... even though that's not the other Paul Newman's real name...

 

I was just wondering if anyone knows who Paul Newman is anymore... :lol:

 

Actually I joked with some young guy once and said yeah I can get Paul Newman to be in my movie... and he said... yeah but he's too old for the part...

[Seung Han]

Maybe just a touch of self-deprecating sarcasm...just a touch...???...

[Keith Walters]

However, the downside to this seems been a pressure to get production cameras out to customers at stage when established manufacturers would still be involved in the pre-production models and making them fully functional. That's not to say that production models from the established manufacturers don't have problems, it took JVC a few months to get the HD 100 sorted. In aviation, the production model of the F22 fighter had a problem when it crossed the international date line for the first time: its navigation system crashed.

 

What seems to have come out from is that these data based HD cameras are more difficult to get to a mature stage than it first appeared. SI have had a few delays as well and the Infinity, from an established manufacturer, is still being worked on behind the scenes, although I've read a good report on it for green screen work.

 

He has done surprisingly well, all things considered.

 

Compare this with Panavision, who have been fiddling with the concept of HD cinematography for the best part of ten years. Despite having a whole division devoted to this concept, with countless presidents, vice-presidents, managers of "Digital" this and that, what do they have to show for it?

 

A fleet of 100 or so aging ENG-style cameras with lenses that will not work on any of their film cameras, (and vice-versa), and 30 or so "super-35" -sized single-sensor cameras which have basically the same processing circuitry as the earlier ones. Neither type was developed by Panavision in more than a superficial way. They're both Sony cameras, and the CineAltas at least are available to anybody with the money to buy one.

 

(Not that this really matters; after an initial flurry of interest, neither type has received much more than a lukewarm response from mainstream film makers anyway).

 

So what this goes to show is the difference between starting off fresh and hiring a totally new team of engineers with a proven track record in their various fields, and trying to "Gerrymander" a project to fit into an existing management culture with no real experience in the field. It's fascinating to read some of

Google News'

archived stories from around 2000 on digital cinematography, and Panavision's predictions of what the future was going to hold.

 

(By the way, I don't know how long Google have had the "archive" feature, but it currently goes back to the 1920s and makes fascinating reading on all sorts of subjects, not just this one. Unfortunately most of the older stories are from the NY Times and they want $4.95 a story, which I think is a trifle optimistic:-)

 

If this feature had only been available 18 months ago, Jannard may have had a better understanding of all the skepticism that was initially levelled at his project. If nothing else it shows up the "house of mirrors" nature of Internet news reporting, since most of the stories are virtually word-for-word copies of other stories.

Edited October 27, 2007 by Keith Walters

[Keith Walters]

Sounds like my cousin... he can't use Paul Newman in business... even though that's not the other Paul Newman's real name...

 

I was just wondering if anyone knows who Paul Newman is anymore... :lol:

The daughter of a friend of mine is a high-powered corporate lawyer, named Jessica Simpson :lol: .

Edited October 27, 2007 by Keith Walters

[Brad Grimmett]

Compare this with Panavision, who have been fiddling with the concept of HD cinematography for the best part of ten years. Despite having a whole division devoted to this concept, with countless presidents, vice-presidents, managers of "Digital" this and that, what do they have to show for it?

Actually, I think they've been a part of digital cinematography for the better part of ten years, or close to it. How long has Red been making cameras for now?

And they have a lot of films shot on their cameras as well as a lot of revenue to show for what you are claiming to be a failure. Again, Red has how many features under it's belt?

A fleet of 100 or so aging ENG-style cameras with lenses that will not work on any of their film cameras, (and vice-versa), and 30 or so "super-35" -sized single-sensor cameras which have basically the same processing circuitry as the earlier ones. Neither type was developed by Panavision in more than a superficial way. They're both Sony cameras, and the CineAltas at least are available to anybody with the money to buy one.

(Not that this really matters; after an initial flurry of interest, neither type has received much more than a lukewarm response from mainstream film makers anyway).

You're right, no one shoots on the Genesis or F900, they all shoot on Red. Oh wait, no they don't.....they all shoot on the F900 or Genesis if they don't shoot film. I've heard that George Lucas, Robert Rodriguez, Michael Mann, and Bryan Singer really hate digital....and besides, they're not really mainstream anyway are they....

Oh, and almost every sitcom on television shoots on the F900. How many are shot on the Red?

So what this goes to show is the difference between starting off fresh and hiring a totally new team of engineers with a proven track record in their various fields, and trying to "Gerrymander" a project to fit into an existing management culture with no real experience in the field.

You're right. Panavision has really failed and Red has passed them right by. Imagine what the world would be without the likes of Red around to make everything better! Oh, wait, Red hasn't done much of anything yet, and they certainly haven't had any of the impact that Panavision has in the world of digital cinematography. I'm sure it's fun for you RedHeads to say, "Just wait and see", but we're shooting every day. We have to use what's available. When Red is available things might change.

 

Get real man. Look at what's out there and what everyone is and has been using for years, and look at what is the next latest and greatest. The "next" latest and greatest hasn't done anything yet. So hold off on how bad all of the cameras are that are out there working compared to the camera that hasn't done anything of note yet and hasn't been proven to be much more than a prototype. The Red may end up to be a good camera, but we won't really know if that's true or not for a while.

 

I've tried to stay out of these ridiculous Red discussions, but these claims were just TOO ridiculous.

[Brian Drysdale]

So what this goes to show is the difference between starting off fresh and hiring a totally new team of engineers with a proven track record in their various fields, and trying to "Gerrymander" a project to fit into an existing management culture with no real experience in the field. It's fascinating to read some of

 

It's not so much starting off fresh, but more it being the technology having reached a certain stage that certain things are possible. RED and SI build on what has come before in HD, Digital stills and computing with a nod towards the Kinetta.

 

I expect RED are sub contracting work the same as Panavision does. The difference lies in their business models: one only rents out their cameras, while the other sells their cameras.

 

The data cameras do bring a new sets of tools, but like any other product they need to be debugged during beta testing. Could be that early REDs might be rather like the early Aatons with no two cameras exactly alike. Although, I'd imagine this will settle down over the next year or so as the main bugs are ironed out.

 

Unfortunately, some of the customers don't make allowances for being brought in during development and apply the same thought process in their schedules as they would to relatively mature product.

[Keith Walters]

Actually, I think they've been a part of digital cinematography for the better part of ten years, or close to it. How long has Red been making cameras for now?

And they have a lot of films shot on their cameras as well as a lot of revenue to show for what you are claiming to be a failure. Again, Red has how many features under it's belt?

 

You're right, no one shoots on the Genesis or F900, they all shoot on Red. Oh wait, no they don't.....they all shoot on the F900 or Genesis if they don't shoot film. I've heard that George Lucas, Robert Rodriguez, Michael Mann, and Bryan Singer really hate digital....and besides, they're not really mainstream anyway are they....

Oh, and almost every sitcom on television shoots on the F900. How many are shot on the Red?

 

You're right. Panavision has really failed and Red has passed them right by. Imagine what the world would be without the likes of Red around to make everything better! Oh, wait, Red hasn't done much of anything yet, and they certainly haven't had any of the impact that Panavision has in the world of digital cinematography. I'm sure it's fun for you RedHeads to say, "Just wait and see", but we're shooting every day. We have to use what's available. When Red is available things might change.

 

Get real man. Look at what's out there and what everyone is and has been using for years, and look at what is the next latest and greatest. The "next" latest and greatest hasn't done anything yet. So hold off on how bad all of the cameras are that are out there working compared to the camera that hasn't done anything of note yet and hasn't been proven to be much more than a prototype. The Red may end up to be a good camera, but we won't really know if that's true or not for a while.

 

I've tried to stay out of these ridiculous Red discussions, but these claims were just TOO ridiculous.

 

Did you hear that Jannard: He called ME a redhead!!!!

 

Exactly what "claims" are you accusing me of making?

Clearly you are one of the "The glass is 2% full" crowd, whereas I'm one of the "Glass is 98% empty" group. (In other words you insist on quoting exceptions as though they were the rule)

 

Anyway:

The purported reason for Panavision's existence is to make a profit for its owners.

To my knowledge, Panavision has not made an operating profit in for the last two decades and before Ron Perelman took it private, they owed over $500 million in bond debts. (Since its now a private company they don't have to issue detailed financial statements, so we don't know what the current situation is).

 

Digital Cinematography was the magic bullet (or magic beans whatever) that was somehow mysteriously going to turn all this around. Despite all the money they spent and all the hype, they continue to rack up much the same losses. Which suggests that Digital Cinematography is not the magic bullet is was supposed to be.

 

"Oh, and almost every sitcom on television shoots on the F900."

 

Hardly surprising, they are televsion cameras after all.

[Alessandro Machi]

If you want to see the genius of Jim Jannard's marketing of the RED camera, just read one page of the replies to his announcement posted above about the production delay. Folks are falling all over themselves telling him how great it is that the cameras are delayed (these are people who gave him $2000 deposits up to a year ago). They couldn't be happier:

 

RedUser.net forum page

 

Amazing,

-Tim

 

If I had pre-ordered one, I would see the press release as good news.

 

I have a JVC BR-HD 50U (it's a deck not a camera) that has had two firmware updates that I did not know about. The deck just completely gave out (meaning the power just died) after only a hundred hours of use. I recall flipping a switch on the front of the deck a couple of times and the deck just instantly stopped working and wouldn't power back up. The deck was actually playing a tape at the time when it just stopped working. It left the tape wrapped around the heads.

 

This is the kind of firmware quirk that I would rather be fixed BEFORE I receive the deck. On my service receipt it says that I would accept a repair up to the price of 1,650 dollars. I was never asked, maybe I don't understand what they mean, but it sounds like they think they can go as high as the cost of the unit when estimating the repair. I can't see paying more than 200 bucks for what happened. It will also cost me to (2) 125 mile round trips and a rental of another deck while this one is being serviced.

 

All I know is this is the first time in 20 years of using any videotape machine that I had a video deck just power down and never power back up, and we're talking thousands of hours of actual tape editiing. In this instance, I was just playing back the tape.

 

In my opinion 2,000 dollars pre-order price is not a significant amount to have to deal with delays that will actually make the product more reliable when it comes out.

[Matthew W. Phillips]

In my opinion 2,000 dollars pre-order price is not a significant amount to have to deal with delays that will actually make the product more reliable when it comes out.

 

Wow Alessandro, I would love to be your friend, as you seem to have money to burn. I wish I could brush off $2,000 as easily as you. I think the main point Tim was making was that people are so happy about the delay. I understand that maybe you, Alessandro, would be patient, but would you be HAPPY about it? Wouldn't you have preferred if RED team would have been more realistic with their shipment date from the beginning?

 

Another thing worth noting is that, while most of these reservation holders are waiting to bring Hollywood down with their film killing camera, they are most likely putting off projects that could be being shot now. They are letting great opportunities pass by when they could be shooting on an already established medium now. I think the opportunity cost is the biggest killer IMHO.