I would love to be someone's trainee

[Graduating cinematographer]

Hi everyone,

I will be graduating as a cinematographer at the Arts Institute at Bournemouth by the end of June 2005. I am desperately looking for a cinematographer who would take me on as their trainee during a project or just for general guidance. I am a quick learner and am willing to do almost any work in return just to have the privilige to follow up a professional. There are no specific areas I am looking to explore because I figure anything will do to get me started.

It doesn't have to be for after June 2005, I would love to become a trainee ASAP, if possible.

If you are interested, or know of anything that can help me with my quest, pls reply.

 

thank you,

Laura :)

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

Oh, dear. You're graduating into by far the nastiest situation you could possibly imagine; by 2005, the recent tax shakeup will have more or less completely destroyed the ragged remains of the British film industry, making it even harder than it is at the moment. You probably haven't been told this, so I may as well make it quick - there's very little chance you will ever be able to use your qualification in this country. I think it's rather dishonest of the universities to offer it as a qualification for work, but I don't know how it was presented in your case.

Either way, you're probably stuffed. There's practically no feature production and there's already far more music promo, advert and TV people than the industry will ever be able to use, me included! You're entering a field of thousands going after (at best) four or five jobs a year as people retire or die off. And yes, I really do mean that - it's those kinds of numbers. In other words, forget about it.

 

The best you can hope for is something that'll let you get out of this situation as quickly as possible - if you have any kind of family ties which will get you a work permit for the US, Canada or Australia, I suggest you follow that up as quickly as you possibly can. If not, you can either sneak past the immigration people at LAX for a while until you can afford to buy your way in (Being female makes you considerably less likely to be caught doing this, but if you are, you'll likely be barred entry forever, so it's a big risk) or you find another line of work.

 

Sorry, but that's the way it is. I've been trying for five years with practically no movement.

 

Phil

[Guest fstop]

BLOODY HELL!!!

 

HOW negative??? I know it's not a great time or a great place Phil, and I CAN empathise with yourt situation, but has it ever been GREAT in the industry? With due respect you are still pretty young and nothing comes on a plate. Grass is never greener over there. David Mullen for example is in LA and he had to do temp work for a couple of years and relegate filming to the weekends- if he had the attitude you demonstrate here (which we ALL KNOW is not what you really think or else why would you be so passionate?) he'd still be there at the office.

 

Laura- You aren't "screwed", it's just a lot of hard hard work and the struggle there has more downs than highs, but so what? If you want it that badly you'll get there and the closedshop/wall of bitterness will NEVER drag you down. Just keep trying and don't give up. Same to you, Phil.

[Graduating cinematographer]

Wow guys, thanks for the motivation.

If there are that many people out there without a job, then surely someone can spare me some of their time and teach me some hand son skills. That's all I'm asking for.

Laura :blink:

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

I think the age thing is particularly important here - I'm 26 and know I've already missed any chance I may have had at big time filmmaking.

 

Sadly Bournemouth is a bit far from Chelmsford, or you'd be welcome to come and clamber around a dusty old building next week for a documentary I'm doing! Not that it would teach you much about cinematography, but still!

 

Phil

[David Mullen ASC]

I didn't even go to film school until I was 27...

[Riku Naskali]

Hi,

 

I think the age thing is particularly important here - I'm 26 and know I've already missed any chance I may have had at big time filmmaking.

Phil

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

So why do you still do what you do? :blink: I really hope the way you present yourself here is just some kind of sarcastic humour, I wouldn't want to work with negative persons. They tend to drag others with them, too.

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

The thing with film school is that in the US you can do it, probably getting into quite serious debt, on the reasonable hope that you will be able to turn it into a paying career. In the UK, where this is effectively impossible, it's much harder to justify such a large expenditure.

 

As for "being negative", I didn't create this situation and nor would I. Don't shoot the messenger.

 

Phil

[Guest fstop]

Yeah, accepting defeat is definitely good advice to offer others, "messenger". :rolleyes: Perhaps a job with the four horsemen over cinematography for you?

 

All you need to know is: MICHAEL BAY is allowed to make movies= ANYONE can get there so long as they don't give up!

 

[Nathan Milford]

Phil,

 

You seem wildly knowledgeable on technical matters and the stills you've posted show you to be quite talented.

 

If you feel stagnated in the UK... come here to the US! Instead of bitching about a situation, change the situation. Get a day job (or continue one and save more), go to Maine or something... make some connections.... work hard. Your technical ability and your eye will put you where you bloody well ought to be... behind a camera.

 

Of course it's hard and discouraging.... everything worth anything ALWAYS is. Why would it be valuable to us otherwise?

 

There are those attempting to enter this industry in a professional capacity (a lot on this board) who probably find themselves in worse situations than yours. I'm sure they find your attitude insulting and trivialising thier individual struggles. You should not be allowed to have that attitude of pessimism unless you've exhausted every avenue of entry. If the US has greener pastures, graze there.... change your citizenship or get a permit. I know I'm simplifying it all to a great degree... I'm sure it is very difficult to pick up your roots or get a work visa and what not, but if you want to thrive in this industry you have to be adaptable and know when you're lighting your way into a corner. If you, my friend, have lit your way into a corner, don't blame it on the Director or the DP or the Goverment or economy... work your way out of it.

 

You can pick apart this posting as much as you want discussing how difficult it is to find work, get a visa, etc... It doesn't matter. It will still be hard.

 

Not knowing you personally I can only add that complaining won't get you work, it'll only alienate you from your peers.

 

- nate

 

(Sorry if I sound harsh, Phil, I don't intend to. I hold you in the highest of regards. This is my way of giving a pep talk :D )

[Adam Frisch FSF]

It is hard for everyone (except for Tony Brown :D ). I'm barely scraping by at the moment. It'll change - I'm still arrogant enough to know that I'll work out in the end as long as you never give up. Never give up. Ever. Do good work - quality DOES matter in this business, even though it's hard to see at times.

 

But there are days when you say; I've been in the business since 1996 (first years combined with a regular job), when can I look myself in the mirror and say "I make my living shooting films"?Hasn't happened yet. It's from hand to mouth still. At other times you think I've reached very, very far in the few years I've been lighting on my own (since 2001). Depends on what mood

you're in :)

 

But at the same time you have to do a little Jedi mind trick on them, too. There's this peptalk-line that goes: "Project The Image Of Strenght At All Times". And it sounds f***ing daft, but it's not such bad advice, actually.

 

I remember a meeting from hell just a year and a half ago where I went in, showed my reel to all the directors at the same time (nerve-wracking!). As they gathered around the monitor I got so nervous and blabbered all over the reel, excusing this, excusing that, "we only had one light", no dolly and so on. Blalala. Basically trashing my own work pre-emptively. Finally one of the directors kinda said that I should just shut up and let them watch the reel!

 

I learned an important lesson that day: never trash your own work. You have a responsible job, they want to feel they can trust you. If you feel you're the best bloody DP in the world, chances are they will to. It's a fine line, never be arrogant - just Project The Image Of Strenght At All Times. Be secure in your own abilities.

 

I've met you in person, Phil. And you're a nice, positive guy. But your net persona is a very negative one. I don't have a problem with that - I have friends that I always argue with on the net because they're gits, but when we meet IRL, we have a blast (i'm not saying you're a git). Just make sure your net persona stays on the net. In fact, we wouldn't want to have anything else here on the forum but it

 

:rolleyes:

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

> If you feel stagnated in the UK... come here to the US!

 

Ha! And, additionally, ha! Tell me how.

 

Phil

[Adam Frisch FSF]

I didn't start lighting until I was 29-30. Your years ahead of me!

[Nathan Milford]

Phil,

 

You can hide from the Homeland Security people under my futon!

 

They won't find you amid the other corpses under there....

 

- nate

[Patrick Neary]

Has anyone else noticed that "The Little Engine That Could" is going downhill with a clown at the controls?....

[Bill DiPietra]

I had a total change of careers at the age of 28...

[J Costantini]

I had a total change of careers at the age of 28...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

what happened?!

[Graduating cinematographer]

Hi everyone,

 

thanks to the many replies to my posting. Though, only one of you has made the effort to answer my question and the rest seems to be reacting to a whole different topic, thanks to Phil.

Is there anyone out there willing to help out a hard working film student, or is this as good as it gets...?

 

I keep hoping,

Laura

[dinko]

I hope this is not your first try to get some work, and I hope it's not your last.

The key is to keep trying and if you don't know where to begin, commercials and music videos are always a good start.

If you want to be someone's trainee especially to a dp, try (if they have an agent) contact their agent and inquire about possibile internship, volunteer work with the dp, just make a list of agents and dp's and start asap.

If you want to be on productions and try to make some contacts, that is also not a bad idea but it's more time consuming,( that depends on your age and ambition ).

If you think that your cv needs to be bigger try getting some numbers or e-mails of local agencies or production companies that do film, commercials or music videos and contact them if they need some production assistants or whatever they need just to get you on the track. Then socialize and make your contacts, eventually something will show up and then make your move.

Just keep trying!

[Bill DiPietra]

what happened?!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I realized the film industry just wasn't for me. And after September 11th, I wanted to help people so I became an EMT.

[Bill DiPietra]

Everyone who has been saying that you have to keep trying is absolutely correct. That's really the best advice we can give you. There will be plenty of rejection, but if you are truly dedicated to the craft you will love every chance you get. Do'nt be afraid to put up posts that say something like "DP FOR HIRE --- WILL WORK FOR FOOD" in the beginning.

 

I never got paid for any DP work I did (although I did very little.) I got paid for other things I did for the production companies like designing web logos. There are lots of opportunities out there and they are only what YOU make of them. Don't go into your first project with too narrow a business view. Be flexible and that will take you places.

 

Best of luck and enjoy.

[Morgan Peline]

http://www.filmunit-e.co.uk/

 

This website (if it is still working) has all the current or upcoming productions in tv and film within the UK. Subscribe to this website and then phone EVERY single production office on the list. Its a numbers game just like telesales...if anyone has done that at slow times in the year...the more people you call, and speak to personally, the more chance you have of getting the sale. Even if you accept a production assistant job it gives you the chance to get friendly with the camera crew and clapper/loader and then hopefully move on to his/her next production as the camera trainee.

 

I got work on one tv series out of this list and just barely missed getting one of the trainee jobs on Alexander...Arrggh!

 

I had sent the the office my cv knowing that nothing would come of it then, as I was working as central loader on a feature, I got a call one night from the production office saying Rodrigo Prieto had read my cv and wanted to meet with me. I didn't even know what 'Alexander' was until the girl on the phone said 'the new Oliver Stone film?' as if I was crazy, I nearly choked. Of course it never happened because by the time I phoned the next day to arrange an appointment, Prieto had gone to Morocco that day to do pre-production. And of course that was it, the office PAs weren't interested in helping me anymore after that.

 

That's another thing, to begin with you have to talk to the people in the office, but the best thing is to try get in contact with anyone in camera department as the office receives hundreds of cvs. Personal contact is always best.

 

Another method is to phone up the regional tv companies like Granada, Yorkshire, Tyne Tees etc. and speak with the human resources department. A lot of the tv drama series in England are part-funded by the broadcasting companies, so alot of the crews are actually staff or contract workers provided by the personnel dept.

 

Or you can get 'The knowledge' directory or go to www.theknowledgeonline.com and phone every single DP, Focus Puller and Clapper Loader in it - the focus puller is probably the best person to speak with as they usually run the camera crewing side of things; the operator and DP usually have other things on their minds. Even if you can persuade the focus puller to allow you on to come on set for a day to have a look...do it!

 

It's a numbers game, the more people you call, the more chance you have to get work, and if you are lucky enough to meet with people in person, that's even better as they can then put a face to the name to the cv.

 

Also be polite and as professional as possible, but most importantly be yourself and have fun with it! Nine times out of ten, camera crews are about personal relationships - people work together because they are professionals together but also enjoy each others company and have a lot fun together whilst working those long, long hours. Camera crews are like little families with their little idiosyncracies and in-jokes. If they like you and enjoy your company, they will make you part of the family. All the the technical and professional stuff can be taught as long as you are willing to learn.

 

That's my two pence worth!

 

Morgan Peline

Cinematographer

National Film & Television School

[Felipe Perez-Burchard]

Morgan, thanks a bunch for the info (I'm in a similar situation as laura), do you know if there is a similar site for US production?

 

Thanks.

 

-felipe.

[Guest Daniel J. Ashley-Smith]

I didn't even go to film school until I was 27...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

When you say film school, you mean like a private film college or film education? I was going to go to the LFS (Until I saw the enrolment prices). Is it necessary to go to a really posh film school to become successful?

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

I gave up cold calling after about year two. You will be met with suspicion, impatience, occasionally derision and at best a kind of amused dismissal at the thought you'd even bother trying; quite a lot of people will swear at you. The thing you have to appreciate is that the production office phones will ring once every thirty seconds all day long with hopefuls like you, and almost everybody will be more qualified than you, even if you went to Bournemouth or NFTS. This is quite possibly the most soul-crushing aspect of it all - you will find early on that you are competing with very experienced people with feature and high-end ad experience, even at the very bottom end of the market. Not only is this bad because you won't get even the most basic of jobs, but think about what a reflection it is on the industry!

 

There are no entry level jobs anymore; they're all filled with very depressed high-end people because it's the best they can get.

 

In any case, you should be careful about taking the advice of people who are already at the top of their respective jobs. The issue here, particularly in the UK, is that with the destruction of working unions by the Thatcher government in the 80s, the career paths they took simply do not exist anymore. I personally know at least three very successful people who all started off as studio camera crew at places like ITN; you can't do that any more since these places hardly employ any crew, it's all freelancers - who are mainly their ex-studio crew!

 

At least in the US, you have the option to start at the bottom and work up, and you have a reasonable chance of that becoming a workable career which will see you through life. In the UK, the only place you can do this is in postproduction, and it still isn't reliable. Generally you'll go and work as a runner for six to eighteen months on less than national minimum wage by the time you've travelled, you'll hint about advancement, and they'll fire you and get another wannabe. I have no personal experience of this path into actual production, but I'm informed by some BBC friends that there are people who've been fetching cups of tea for Auntie's production staff for three years or more. If you've gone to Bournemouth, your folks can probably afford to support you while you try this, but personally I couldn't afford the three to five years effectively unpaid labour.

 

Irritating as it may be it's difficult to criticise companies for exploiting people in this way. London postproduction houses are by far the most expensive in the world, usually by a factor of two or three, and they're in one of the most expensive areas of one of the most expensive countries. While there are vastly more people to fill jobs than there are jobs then people will be exploited. And this brings us back to unions - the closed-shop union system, in as much as it doens't exist anymore, at least let you know whether you had a chance. Either you had an "in" or you didn't. Now you're left to wander in limbo, maybe getting the odd job here or there, never getting to develop any skills or really serious experience because you're never working for long enough. The quality of UK crews was at one time felt to be very good, but I'm beginning to realise that the current system, so far as there is one, is producing nothing more than a generation of underexperienced hopefuls, ever flitting from chance job to chance job, and never really learning how to produce decent material. This is fine at the moment, but the last generation of properly-trained crew is now much less than ten years from retirement. It's unlikely we'll have any production whatsoever left in the UK by the time they're gone, though, so it probably won't matter.

 

Phil