Hans Engstrom Posted July 23, 2008 Share Posted July 23, 2008 Lately I´ve been getting more calls from producers expecting me to work for free. All of them have been RED projects. When I tell them that I don´t work for free they get suprised. In their world everyone will work for free and they tell me that I get the opportunity to work with the RED camera. Wow I get the opportunity to work with a camera full of bugs, the whole team are for sure going to have to wait for me rebooting the camera several times and I get to do this without salary. How can I be so stupid to turn these offers down. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Stephen Williams Posted July 23, 2008 Premium Member Share Posted July 23, 2008 Lately I´ve been getting more calls from producers expecting me to work for free. All of them have been RED projects. When I tell them that I don´t work for free they get suprised. In their world everyone will work for free and they tell me that I get the opportunity to work with the RED camera. Wow I get the opportunity to work with a camera full of bugs, the whole team are for sure going to have to wait for me rebooting the camera several times and I get to do this without salary. How can I be so stupid to turn these offers down. ;) Hi, I have turned down over 10 Red job to date, most were for free or very little. money I always say I only will work for free shooting 35mm, then I know I will have material I can use for my showreel. if I like the project I will even supply the camera kit for nothing too. Stephen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Holland Posted July 23, 2008 Share Posted July 23, 2008 How strange i have had the same problem . working free shooting RED One . I dont have the 35mm kit like you Stephen . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Gross Posted July 23, 2008 Share Posted July 23, 2008 It's an interesting phenomenon. It doesn't say anything about the camera technology as much as it does about the marketing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Paul Bruening Posted July 23, 2008 Premium Member Share Posted July 23, 2008 This is peculiar. Is the rate of RED jobs offered as free labor higher than film? Is the assumption that DPs will work free just to get the chance to add RED to their resume? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Holland Posted July 23, 2008 Share Posted July 23, 2008 Could be that people have bought this system [ its cheap] and have it and dont know how to get a good picture from it ? As far as i am concerned not going near till its a proper working bit of kit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Adrian Sierkowski Posted July 23, 2008 Premium Member Share Posted July 23, 2008 I would assume that's the idea behind it. Sadly, it'll probably work with some DPs just in order to build up the reel, ya know? I would suspect, honestly, that a lot of people who haven't worked directly with film, or whose workings with film were pretty small, may take up a producer on that inasmuch as it may lead to more work via the more impressive reel. This is all just an assumption, of course. I have worked for free on film projects, before. Though, as I own the camera, I generally ask for a "rental rate," for that, which at least keeps food on my table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Stephen Williams Posted July 23, 2008 Premium Member Share Posted July 23, 2008 This is peculiar. Is the rate of RED jobs offered as free labor higher than film? Is the assumption that DPs will work free just to get the chance to add RED to their resume? Hi Paul, It's just a few video producers believe the hype, they assume everybody else wants to be part of the revoloution at any price. They never worked it's how you light the image thats important, the camera is just a tool. Stephen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Chad Stockfleth Posted July 23, 2008 Premium Member Share Posted July 23, 2008 I can only imagine students/recent graduates doing things like that for free. That's the only time I really did work like that for exposure to equipment. Once you are a bit established, I just can't imagine doing that. In fact, most rental houses will let you demo cameras for free so that you will rent them. Besides, the only person I know personally who's shot with the RED had a board failure and the camera had to be replaced! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Stephen Williams Posted July 23, 2008 Premium Member Share Posted July 23, 2008 Besides, the only person I know personally who's shot with the RED had a board failure and the camera had to be replaced! Hi, It's quite rare for owners to admit that they have had any problems, the rest of the crew seem to have many stories to tell. What bothers me the most is the security of my footage. I have seen a lot of footage that has been retained by DIT's/Owners & being freely shown before projects are on air, without permission of the copyright owners. Of course the real owners are not being credited for their work either. Stephen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 23, 2008 Share Posted July 23, 2008 Hi, I have turned down over 10 Red job to date, most were for free or very little. money I always say I only will work for free shooting 35mm, then I know I will have material I can use for my showreel. if I like the project I will even supply the camera kit for nothing too. Stephen What the *bleep* man, if I had known that I would have flown you over for Dark Reprieve! :D It was 35mm. R, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Adrian Sierkowski Posted July 23, 2008 Premium Member Share Posted July 23, 2008 That is a major concern I had with the RED and most tapeless solutions. A lot of the contracts I get to shoot require me not to show the footage, not to use it in my reel, and get rid of any/all backups once clients take final delivery. I even had one shoot where the venue asked me to jump on the tape. . .strange people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saul Rodgar Posted July 23, 2008 Share Posted July 23, 2008 It actually cuts both ways. I have been able to get the footage off a hard drive for my reel faster that way, as opposed to hoping a producer will get around to sending it to me some day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Adrian Sierkowski Posted July 23, 2008 Premium Member Share Posted July 23, 2008 Amen to that Saul. I'm lucky, most of the footage in which I have these contracts is not stuff I'd really want to throw on my montage reel. Though maybe for a live event/reality tv/ pseudo doco reel. .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K Borowski Posted July 23, 2008 Share Posted July 23, 2008 Hate to say this, but it sounds eerily like the phenomenon I've witnessed in still photography. The big-budget productions are safe, but there will be fewer of them, film or digital, with the really big budgets. The lower-budget stuff gets diluted because of the proliferation of cameras, and the cost to shoot goes down because now everyone thinks they are a photographer. I hope it doesn't manifest itself with the same intensity in the movie industry as it did with still photography, but there certainly are going to be repercussions with digital to some extent. It's not the technology I hate, it's the way that people think they can get away with using the technology, i.e. making a "free" movie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Tagliaferri Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 Yeah, I just did a Red shoot for free. Sort of as a favor, and also to put the Red camera on my CV, as I hadn't used it yet But today I got a call to do another 2-day shoot for free. I was really hesitant to agree as I pretty much don't have an income right now, and I'm trying to get a start in film as an AC/DP. I ended up agreeing because I know the DP gets alot of work, and I sort of know the producer. I'm really sick of working for free though. How do I transition into making this a source of income? Do you just refuse to work for free, even if you know they'll just find someone else? Man I wish I was in a union. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Adrian Sierkowski Posted July 24, 2008 Premium Member Share Posted July 24, 2008 (edited) You set a day rate, and start negotiating. You may loose some jobs, most of them free, but honestly, what are you really loosing? Be cordial, and be honest. "I would love to shoot it for you, but I just can't do it for free, isn't there anything you can offer?" "Well not really." "Nothing at all, how bout $x/day?" "well . . . " and so it goes. My rate started at like $50/day waaayyy back when I was a little kid. Literally, like 10. Now a days, I can normally get between 300~400/day to shoot, though for really simple eng stuff, I can go down lower. Or, sometimes I just get a call like "we have x money for you to do y," and then I keep whatever is left over out of that. But even now, I sometimes will work for free. Sometimes I just miss shooting. Other times I have a good feeling that this WILL lead to more work. And other times, I just am so in love with the project and NEED to shoot it. A lot also depends on where you are. There is far more work on the Coasts [usa](NY and LA especially) than there is in the middle, from what I've seen/heard. Edited July 24, 2008 by Adrian Sierkowski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member John Brawley Posted July 24, 2008 Premium Member Share Posted July 24, 2008 I hope it doesn't manifest itself with the same intensity in the movie industry as it did with still photography, but there certainly are going to be repercussions with digital to some extent. It's not the technology I hate, it's the way that people think they can get away with using the technology, i.e. making a "free" movie. It already has. it happened when MiniDV was launched. It's just the same thing happening all over again..just this time...at 4k ;-) 4K of what i say ! People will actually respect you more though if you charge something. When I first started, i used to have two rates. One for film and one for tape. The tape rate was much less, and they were always the jobs that took more time and were more painful to shoot and to deal with. I eventually just went with a flat rate and funnily enough im much happier now because I charge more !!! You actually get a lot more respect that way. I still do cheaper jobs for friends or for good cause's or just because I want to, but I also invoice them and get paid a token amount and i always put my full daily rate on the invoice and then apply a discount, even if it's 98%..just so they know the value of my time. jb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hans Engstrom Posted July 24, 2008 Author Share Posted July 24, 2008 Yeah, I just did a Red shoot for free. Sort of as a favor, and also to put the Red camera on my CV, as I hadn't used it yet But today I got a call to do another 2-day shoot for free. I was really hesitant to agree as I pretty much don't have an income right now, and I'm trying to get a start in film as an AC/DP. I ended up agreeing because I know the DP gets alot of work, and I sort of know the producer. I'm really sick of working for free though. How do I transition into making this a source of income? Do you just refuse to work for free, even if you know they'll just find someone else? Man I wish I was in a union. As AC I only do freebies for friends that I hang with in everyday life. DPing is another story as it depends on the project. What I do when I get a call about a project is that I quote my usual rate aprox 500usd/8h day. If I then find out that it´s a low budget shortfilm and I don´t have anything in my calender I might be willing to negotiate. It then usually ends up around the same as I charge when working on a feature which is aprox half of what I charge when working on daily basis. If they´re not willing to pay that, it´s their loss, I´m not willing to work for free and perhaps miss a paid gig. The only way to get out of the "working for free world" is by starting to charge everyone. If they want qualified personel they should pay. I´m planning on building a house within a year or two. Perhaps I should start calling carpenters asking them to work for free since it´s going to be such a wonderfull house alltough my budget is low. :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Downes Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 I can only imagine students/recent graduates doing things like that for free. That's the only time I really did work like that for exposure to equipment. Once you are a bit established, I just can't imagine doing that. In fact, most rental houses will let you demo cameras for free so that you will rent them. Besides, the only person I know personally who's shot with the RED had a board failure and the camera had to be replaced! Indeed they do. Heck, Panavision let me just play with a G2 for hours one time when I was with a feature project (which then later fell apart). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Downes Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 My rate started at like $50/day waaayyy back when I was a little kid. Literally, like 10. Now a days, I can normally get between 300~400/day to shoot, though for really simple eng stuff, I can go down lower. Or, sometimes I just get a call like "we have x money for you to do y," and then I keep whatever is left over out of that. Man, I feel like I'm undercharging now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Stephen Williams Posted July 24, 2008 Premium Member Share Posted July 24, 2008 What the *bleep* man, if I had known that I would have flown you over for Dark Reprieve! :D It was 35mm. R, Richard, I seem to remember you came quite close, we just never got around to talking money! :lol: In any case you gave me a credit, IMDB even created a new Stephen Williams! Stephen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Adrian Sierkowski Posted July 24, 2008 Premium Member Share Posted July 24, 2008 Funny thing is, Nate, 'round here I'm the one under-charging as far as I know. Last I looked a DP/Camera Op in Philadelphia, maybe 3 yrs ago, was getting around $500/day. If I can walk with $250/day I'm pretty happy, though. Now, if only there was more work here. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Downes Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 Funny thing is, Nate, 'round here I'm the one under-charging as far as I know.Last I looked a DP/Camera Op in Philadelphia, maybe 3 yrs ago, was getting around $500/day. If I can walk with $250/day I'm pretty happy, though. Now, if only there was more work here. . . IKWYM, work here is gone. Last position I even heard of was the one I did for $50 a day simply because they were the only one paying anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K Borowski Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 IKWYM, work here is gone. Last position I even heard of was the one I did for $50 a day simply because they were the only one paying anything. Haha, what about "CSI : Miami?" You could always try to work for them Nate ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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