criticism wanted

kynan tait · October 8, 2008

recently, i was given the opportunity to shoot a skateboard short on a bolex ebm. i have shot super 8 as a hobby for years but due mostly to cost, i have never made the leap to 16mm.

the camera/film/transfer/telecine was paid for so i jumped at it.

it was a great experience, and i look forward to working with 16 in the future.

if any of you kind folks would take a look at my short and let me know if you notice anything optically that i may have been doing wrong it would be of great help.

any comments/suggestions, etc are welcome.

the short is here:

http://www.vimeo.com/1886694

Ian Cooper · October 8, 2008

Looks alright to me, not that my opinion counts for much! ;)

Was the bolex super-16 by any chance? I noticed vignetting in the corners in a couple of shots, and obviously light leakage at the edge. I believe you need to be very careful loading/unloading the camera with daylight spools if you're running S16. Personally I always unload my camera in a changing bag so I don't fog the last couple of shots!

Even though I'm running regular-16 I have sometimes seen a bit of fogging at the very edge on the first 10/20 seconds or so - fortunately it's been outside the 'broadcast' area so isn't noticeable. :rolleyes:

What filmstock was it shot on? I also noticed that the vimeo clip was shown with the high definition setting turned on - was it telecined to HD?

kynan tait · October 9, 2008

yes, the bolex was converted to super16.

i can't find the vignetting, but the light leaks are obviously there. i didn't know much about the camera, or 16 cameras at all. i should have taped the body up.

i loaded/unloaded the camera with a blanket overmyself as i didnt have a proper changing bag. it was very dark, i don't think that should have affected the film.

it was shot on vision2 50d for the daylight stuff, and the couple night shots were on vision2 500t.

all the film was telecined to HD

Edited October 9, 2008 by kynan tait

Ian Cooper · October 9, 2008

The vignetting can be seen in the bottom right, bottom left and a touch in the top corner from 0:02 > 0:11

It can be seen again in the bottom corners and a touch in the top right at 0:56 > 1:04

Perhaps a hint of it in the top corners (the bottom of the frame is dark anyway) 2:27 > 2:33

A bit around the bottom left corner 2:27 > 3:04

A touch in the bottom left around 3:42

It's pretty clear on both the left and right hand sides of the frame 3:56 > 4:01

Regarding the light leaks: Were the shots of the chainsawing the first shot? I still feel they're more likey to be fogging from having loaded the film. The amount of light needed to expose a frame at 1/48th second is very small indeed. Unless under your blanket was totally dark, I guess there might still be enough light for the number of seconds it took to load the film to fog the edges. I think if you can see what you're doing, then there's enough light to risk fogging the film! You really need to ensure the film on the feed spool remains wrapped up tight, then make a note how much film you have to run through the camera to get past all the fogged film after loading. R16 has the comfort zone of the perf area for light to fog into before reaching the image, S16 doesn't.

If it was light leaking around the edge of the camera door I would have thought you'd see the fogging all through the film, rather than just those couple of shots.

What lenses did you use?

Simon Wyss · October 9, 2008

Why cut a man's head ?

Ian Cooper · October 9, 2008

Why cut a man's head ?

Sorry, the OP asked for comments on optical issues. When he said he couldn't see the vignetting I was just pointing out the areas where I thought it could be seen.

kynan tait · October 10, 2008

i used a pan cinor 17mm-85mm f2 and a switar 10mm f1.6

i can't notice the vignetting at 2:27>2:33 or 2:27>3:04 and i think that the err at 3:42 was simply a lens flare.

it seems the places where it is clearly visible what when the pan cinor was fully zoomed out at 17mm. would this make sense?

i believe the logging shots were indeed the first shots on a roll, and it was probably the sunniest day which would make sense if it were from improper loading. given my unfamiliarity with 16mm, i doubt it would have been able to load the rolls properly were i not able to see them a little bit.

i will have to look into getting a change bag for future shoots for sure.

Adrian Sierkowski · October 10, 2008

GO for the big changing tent from harrison and harrison. You'll be vary grateful! I hate those little bags.

Ian Cooper · October 10, 2008

it seems the places where it is clearly visible what when the pan cinor was fully zoomed out at 17mm. would this make sense?

That would seem right if that lens doesn't quite have the coverage for S16. Just need to make a mental note not to use it at the widest setting... or if you do, ensure the image in the corners is already darker toned than the centre of the frame! :lol:

i believe the logging shots were indeed the first shots on a roll, and it was probably the sunniest day which would make sense if it were from improper loading. given my unfamiliarity with 16mm, i doubt it would have been able to load the rolls properly were i not able to see them a little bit.
i will have to look into getting a change bag for future shoots for sure.

I suspect you loaded it properly, just needed to run an extra couple of seconds through the camera as leader to get past the fogged edge from the loading process. If you can load by feel in a changing bag then you'll obviously eliminate the risk and also gain a little bit more usable film in the process. I used to be able to load my standard 8 camera in a changing bag, but that doesn't have sprockets and loops to worry about! I'm not sure I'd like to try loading my K3 in a bag and still get the loops looking reasonable, and I certainly wouldn't like to try loading my R16 by feel alone and still get the loops right. I suppose the Bolex has automatic loop formers, so it might be easier with a little practice.

Unloading in a bag is dead easy as you're just lifting the spool out! That will save the last couple of shots on the reel, and may help compensate for having to pass a bit more film through the camera as leader at the start.

kynan tait · October 10, 2008

good advice. greatly appreciated!

Simon Wyss · October 10, 2008

Sorry, the OP asked for comments on optical issues. When he said he couldn't see the vignetting I was just pointing out the areas where I thought it could be seen.

I looked at the pictures. The character's head is sometimes cut across at the upper image edge. That is a very optical issue.

Ian Cooper · October 10, 2008

I looked at the pictures. The character's head is sometimes cut across at the upper image edge. That is a very optical issue.

Whoops, sorry :wacko:

Thought the post was possibly reference my comments.

alexandros petin · October 10, 2008

Very nice!!!

@3:59 down left and right theres some very slight vignetting.

but once you get to watch sk8 in that short noone will notice it ;-)

keep it on and do more!

alex

Andy_Alderslade · October 10, 2008

i used a pan cinor 17mm-85mm f2 and a switar 10mm f1.6

The Switar 10mm vignettes on Super 16 ever so slightly, so is likely to be the culprit. You can zoom in slightly in post if it troubles you, or I suppose in future you could request the colorist to zoom in during telecine in future - I think that is done, anyone?

Nice video, for me the only thing that let it down was the varying qualities in audio.

Cheers,

Andy

Eric Black · October 10, 2008

Jesus it's great! Looks absolutely beautiful, I'm sure the people who paid for it were very very happy. Great great stuff, I hope you work in 16mm more in the future. Cheers!

Tim Terner · October 10, 2008

Jesus it's great! Looks absolutely beautiful, I'm sure the people who paid for it were very very happy. Great great stuff, I hope you work in 16mm more in the future. Cheers!

My thoughts as well.

Also some very nice advice from Ian. Well done Kynan

Eric Black · October 11, 2008

I do have one piece of constructive input for your next shoot: I noticed some great opportunities for cutaways that you could shoot next time. I like little details, especially up close on Super16mm, I would maybe throw in a nice close-up shot of the chainsaw digging into that log, throwing a plume of sawdust everywhere, close-up's of skater's faces, the boards/wheels, just some little extra pieces you can use as an editing band-aid, or to add some extra texture to the footage. You have some great wide shots, but think Wide, Medium, Close, that way you have some more to cut with, and it adds that extra layer of depth.

Great footage though, love Super16mm a lot. Plus, BC is always easy on the eyes (But Alberta is better hehe)

kynan tait · October 14, 2008

thank you all for the words of advice, i will keep them all in mind.

i do tend towards the wide shots; everything seems shot so close to me these days. but i will keep it in mind for additional coverage.

thanks again.

Chris Burke · October 14, 2008

thank you all for the words of advice, i will keep them all in mind.
i do tend towards the wide shots; everything seems shot so close to me these days. but i will keep it in mind for additional coverage.

thanks again.

Great job. I really like your framing. What kind of scanner or telecine was used for the transfer? What kind of grading was done to it?

andres victorero · October 15, 2008

Nice images, if anyone is interested I sell one Bolex EBM S16

http://www.cinematography.com/forum2004/in...showtopic=34135

kynan tait · October 15, 2008

Great job. I really like your framing. What kind of scanner or telecine was used for the transfer? What kind of grading was done to it?

i don't know exactly what scanner was used. the short was filmed for an invite-only contest so the hosts of the contest set up and paid for all the telecine jobs. the footage came back at 1080p prores422 and with a flat pass scan. i did all of the grading myself in apple's color.