Versatility for under $15k?

[Guest Sean McVeigh]

I hate to ask one of those "what camera should I buy" questions, but since I already own one, hopefully I'm exempt from at least some of the name-calling that would be expected...

 

So, I really like my 2C. It works well (when it's not -14 and my take-up tension isn't set too high, and my batteries aren't frozen), and I originally picked it up to cut down on the costs of renting equivalent gear while shooting a short over several weekends.

 

Here's my dilemma.. I am now starting to pick up some more work, and I'd like to investigate "upgrading" so to speak. I'm considering selling my 2C and looking for an Arri III or an older BL1/2/3. I anticipate doing some commercial work, and music videos, and for all this sort of stuff, the III seems like a good choice. But I'd also naturally like to develop my own shorts and I'd reaaaly reaaaly like to try and cut down on the on-set camera noise, which is why I'm also considering a BL. Help speed along post, less time spent on ADR, etc.

 

Can anyone offer some insights as to what the ups and downs would be when trying to decide between these two options? Or if you think I'm overlooking some other options, I'd love to hear your input.

 

Again, hoping to cut down the cost of rentals (well, mostly the cost of insurance required for rentals in my neck of the woods.. ouch!) with the option to recover most of the investment at a later date.

 

-Sean

Edited December 31, 2004 by Sean McVeigh

[mattuhry]

Hi Sean,

 

I could probably help you better if you give me more information.

 

Is this for personal use or do you rent this camera to productions? What kind of clients do you typically have? Do they care if you shoot with an old tired beat-up out of date camera? ( I use old ugly beat up camera's sometimes, and shoot beautifull film with them, but not when there are clients paying the big bucks around ) Do you ever need to rent accesories, or will you be totally self-sufficient? Many older cameras don't have industry standard PL mounts.

 

In my opinion the BL 3 is where the arri BL line hit it's stride, I think you will have to pay at least $25,000 to get any kind of complete useable package.

 

The Arri 3 is the only obvious choice if you want a small MOS high speed camera for under $15,000

 

Here's some ideas if you are doing sync sound:

 

Arri BL - 1 $9,000-15,000 - close to a do-all, sort of silent, high speed camera.

 

Pro's : Well made, Familiar to many AC's, Fairly light weight. Origonally designed to run at 100 fps. but that may not be healthy for such an old camera.

Con's : Last made in the late 70's, Noisy, Expensive to fix. Arri B-mount can be changed to hardfront PL but it will get noiser without that nasty lens blimp. Expensive to repair.

 

Kinor 35H $5000-9000 - Moviecam copy from Russia

 

Pro's: Good camera, they copied a good design. Light and fairly quiet. Russian lenses are good and plentifull. Cheap to repair, but may involve sending to Russia. PL mount possble. Designed with Super 35 in mind

con's: A little exotic, not many AC's will be familiar with it. Reliability varies with condition.

 

Mitchell BNCR $9900 Heavy, well made Tank.

 

Pro's Solid Complete Packages being sold rather cheaply

Con's Solid Heavy takes at least 2 people to lift one of these suckers

 

Good Luck,

Matt Uhry www.fuzby.com

[Guest Sean McVeigh]

Hi Sean,

 

I could probably help you better if you give me more information.

 

Is this for personal use or do you rent this camera to productions?  What kind of clients do you typically have?  Do they care if you shoot with an old tired beat-up out of date camera?  (  I use old ugly beat up camera's sometimes, and shoot beautifull film with them, but not when there are clients paying the big bucks around )  Do you ever need to rent accesories, or will you be totally self-sufficient?  Many older cameras don't have industry standard PL mounts. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thanks for the input Matt.

It would not be for rental, unless I was renting myself out to operate it. Pretty much the same as I'm doing with my 2C. I bought it initially for personal use, but since it doesn't get used everyday, and it seems a waste to have an idle 35mm camera when people are shelling out for rentals, or settling for 16mm, I started seeking out gigs with my local film co-op. Unpaid at first, but now I'm starting to pick up some low budget commercial work on the side. In effect, the camera will have paid for itself soon enough, and then I get to shoot my personal work free of equipment costs.

 

As you put it though, it just doesn't look right to show up for commercial work with a beat up 60's era camera. So aside from billing out $3k more for rental equipment plus insurance (which would effectively double my last complete budget), it seems that owning a slightly more up-to-date (term used loosely here) camera is my best bet. And of course, if the work dries up, I can always re-sell.

 

As to your suggestions... I had gathered as much about the BL3 being where the BL's hit their stride. Moved to a modern lens mount, etc. They've become quieter over the years as well. As far as useable packages are concerned though, I would consider 2 mags and a camera body "useable". Lenses are not a problem to come by.

Is the Kinor actually quiet? I was under the impression they were quite loud at 30dBa or so. I guess I have no reference point... how loud do you figure a running 2C clocks in at? Arri BL's? For reference, I guess I could check out the local 16BL's and Eclairs and see just how loud I consider "too loud" to be.

I actually considered a Kinor before, but it was out of my price range at the time. I know there is a fairly knowledgeable online community that sprung up around the russian cameras.. I should look into that further.

 

Um... any further suggestions anyone?

 

Has anyone ever seen a "camera noise comparison" web page? hehe.

 

Happy New Year!

-Sean

[Adam Frisch FSF]

Visual Products makes a blimped hard front PL mount for the BL1 and 2's that eliminates the need for the lens blimp. It's not super cheap, but cheaper than buying a BL3. Could be an option.

 

Other than that the Arri III can't really be beat for ruggedness. It's a monster to handhold and it's not very good for video assist, but it's built like a tank. It can do just about anything except sync sound.

[Nate Downes]

Actually, I know where to get a Mitchell BNCR for under $7k. (I've long wanted one myself, so I keep an ear out for good bargains)

[mattuhry]

Camera Noise is only a problem when it is apparent over the background noise of where you are filming. the DB scale is an exponential one here is a good place to read a basic description of it:

 

http://science.howstuffworks.com/question124.htm

 

As far as it concerns cameras I think most people would draw the line of what is suitable for shooting sync sound at around 32db. This db level would be too lound for a quiet conversation in a small tiled room, but would be tolerable for most normal urban and suburban interiors and exteriors.

 

What is considered silent has lots to do with the sound dept too. Some are not happy until you barney the camera with furniture pads so much you cannot find the run switch! Hear any movies lately? It's not called the Motion Sound industry.

 

Matt Uhry

www.fuzby.com

[GeorgeSelinsky]

Actually, I know where to get a Mitchell BNCR for under $7k.  (I've long wanted one myself, so I keep an ear out for good bargains)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I respect the engineering that went into that camera, and you can get them for under 10K, but I can't for the life of me envision using it for the "crew of 2" type of indie filmmaking that I'm used to. Every set up you gotta move that sucker, and I'm sure the tripod for it also weighs hansomely. Another problem is you'd have a real hard time shooting in smaller locations. Imagine filming in a typical New York city apartment's kitchen, let alone a bathroom. You'd go crazy trying to squeeze that phone booth sized camera into it, and trying to get a good shot at the same time. Then those 1000' mags become a major encumberance if you're filming with 200' short end loads. The only way I can see living with a camera like that is having a IIc or similar package on the side to get the MOS shots. But then you have to make sure the lenses match...

 

- G.

Edited January 1, 2005 by GeorgeSelinsky

[Guest Sean McVeigh]

As far as it concerns cameras I think most people would draw the line of what is suitable for shooting  sync sound at around 32db.  This  db level would be too lound for a quiet conversation in a small tiled room, but would be tolerable for most normal urban and suburban interiors and exteriors. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

When they describe a camera as being 32 dBa, I wonder at what distance from the camera they are measuring?

I just mixed a camera noise track with a dialogue track such that they were about 20dB apart and the results weren't too favorable. At 30dB separation, the camera noise is hardly noticeable. So I guess given a decent shotgun setup, close enough to the actors, a 32dBa camera noise isn't all that bad, so long as it is placed far enough from the mic.

I really should borrow a sound pressure meter some time, then it'd be trivial to test this kind of stuff.

 

Googled around a bit for some reference numbers:

Arricam Studio - 20dBa

SR3 - 20+2dBa

Arricam Lite - 24dBa

BNCR - 24dBa

A-Minima - 27dBa

SR1 - 28 dBa

SR3 HS - 27+2dBa

NPR - 30dBa

BL16 - 31dBa

Kinor 35H - 32dBa

35BL-1 - 35dBa

 

I have access to an NPR and a BL16, so presumably the Kinor is somwehere in that noise ballpark. Interesting that I found a note placing the BL-1 as louder than all of the above (when it was first introduced.. not sure if they fixed that later).

So apparently, for the price, only the BNCR would register quieter than the Kinor. Interesting.

 

Anyone else have any noise levels to add? (the Arri website seems to be down at the moment, so I can't compare the newer BL's)

 

I'm curious to know how loud a 2C is supposed to be rated.. I read somewhere about 55-60dBa?

 

-Sean

[Guest Sean McVeigh]

Kinor 35H - 32dBa

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Actually, from the commiecam site: 24-32dBa (depending on version/age)

 

if that's true, then hmmm.. definitely must consider this camera.

[zrszach]

I read on some site that the kinor 35h has to be modified to shoot Kodak film. :huh:

 

what does this mean?

[GeorgeSelinsky]

I read on some site that the kinor 35h has to be modified to shoot Kodak film. :huh:

 

what does this mean?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It's because Eastern Europe used to use the Kodak Positive perforations on their negative filmstock (which is used only for positive prints in Western Europe and the USA). The perf size is a bit different, and when using a pin registered movement like on the Kinor, that becomes a serious issue.

 

In 1991 when Boris Yeltsin triumphed over the Soviet Union in Russia, he declared before several thousand demonstrators that the war for perforation size is finally over, after which he broke into a dance. That marked the beginning of the end of the Kodak Positive perf on eastern euro market.

 

 

Okay, just kidding about that last part ;)

 

- G.

Edited January 2, 2005 by GeorgeSelinsky

[Adam Frisch FSF]

I think I read somewhere that sound levels are measured 1m in front of the lens port on cameras giving room for manufacturers to shave some off by using very big zooms to muffle the noise. Shifty.

[Guest Sean McVeigh]

It's because Eastern Europe used to use the Kodak Positive perforations on their negative filmstock (which is used only for positive prints in Western Europe and the USA). The perf size is a bit different, and when using a pin registered movement like on the Kinor, that becomes a serious issue.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yup, they need to be modified.

However.. most of the time I see them "modified for B&H perforations". Is this the same as kodak neg perf?

I remember looking it up last year, but I can't recall if this is the case.

 

-Sean

[John Pytlak RIP]

Yup, they need to be modified. 

However.. most of the time I see them "modified for B&H perforations".  Is this the same as kodak neg perf?

I remember looking it up last year, but I can't recall if this is the case.

 

-Sean

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

In 1989, Kodak developed an improved BH perforation by changing the perforator punch and die to very slightly round the sharp corners where the round sides met the flat top and bottom. This significantly improved the wear characteristics, yet maintained compatibility with the BH registration pins used in cameras and printers:

 

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/products....1.4.28.8&lc=en

 

1989:

STRENGTHENED CORNERS. All 35 mm EASTMAN camera negative films with Bell and Howell (negative) perforations are produced with stronger (radius increased by 0.005 inches) corners. This will decrease the propensity for the perforations to fracture, and lengthen the use of products where perforation stress is a factor

 

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/...esP.shtml#perfs

 

35 mm professional motion picture cameras and optical printers were designed with registration pins that conformed to negative (BH) perforation. To this day, newly designed professional equipment incorporates registration pins conforming to the negative (BH) perforation. In 1989 Kodak introduced a stronger version of the Bell & Howell (negative) perforation. The radius of each corner was rounded by 0.005 inches. This small difference is almost imperceptible visually, but adds strength where the perforation is most vulnerable to tearing during stress periods while being transported through equipment. This is especially true during highspeed photography. This corner radius change does not necessitate any equipment change worldwide, and yet improves product performance.

 

Another Bell & Howell perforation performance improvement was introduced by Kodak in 1989. This is a reduction in perforation-dimension tolerance from the ANSI specifications. This tighter tolerance format is used where film registration is very critical, such as in travelling matte photography or separations. The tighter tolerance perforations are standard on all Kodak 16 mm camera films and some 35 mm films.

[Mihai Meda]

QUESTION:

 

I have the Arri 35BL-1 WITH a BNCR mount. What db level I should expect: the level of a regular BL-1 (but keep in mind I do not have the regular Arri mount which produces in itself noise chatter through the mount and lens) or the BNCR level? I am mainly talking about the noice through the mount not the body and magazine noise.

[Webster Colcord]

They mostly show up on fx shoots, but have you considered a Mitchell S35R? They're available for under 10K and they still look cool enough to impress a client, especially with the under-slung mag.

[John Sprung]

In 1989, Kodak developed an improved BH perforation by changing the perforator punch and die to very slightly .....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So maybe Mel Brooks was right when he said that the hardest part of making "Young Frankenstein" was punching all the little holes in the edges. ;-)

 

 

 

-- J.S.

[Guest Sean McVeigh]

I have the Arri 35BL-1 WITH a BNCR mount. What db level I should expect: the level of a regular BL-1 (but keep in mind I do not have the regular Arri mount which produces in itself noise chatter through the mount and lens) or the BNCR level? I am mainly talking about the noice through the mount not the body and magazine noise.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Good question.. The best way to find out is probably to just fire it up and move a mic around the room, recording the noise. Even better, get a good shotgun mic out and see if you can seperate the camera noise from someone speaking in front of the shotgun. It's amazing how much more quiet you can make an apparently loud-sounding camera become with the right sound gear.

 

In other news, there is a BL2 for sale on eBay right now.. wonder if it's a scam or for real. "Private" auction, no previous sales, but several purchases.

 

Is it worthwhile to look into the BL2 at all, or should I set my sights on the BL3 for the convenience of losing the blimped lenses? The budget may become a bit more flexible so I may be able to investigate that option.

 

Also, how does the Aaton 35-3 stack up beside something like a BL3 or a Kinor 35H?

 

Cheers,

Sean

[zrszach]

"Also, how does the Aaton 35-3 stack up beside something like a BL3 or a Kinor 35H?"

 

 

 

the aaton 35-3 runs at about 30 dba

Edited January 13, 2005 by zrszach

[chooser]

i had only really shot super 16mm, and only on Aaton XTR prods and my on own LTR kit. I rented 35mm kits for bigger budget shots, usually an Arri III, commercials / music videos etc. However when I wanted to start shooting shorts and eventually features (in the middle of my first now) I went through the same delemia. I looked at a lot of cameras and in the end settled on a BL2 kit with original mount and set of cooke panchros primes and a couple of zooms.

 

The whole kit (video tap etc) including lens and two custom made pelican cases came in well under $13000.00 US. On the whole very very happy with the quality and results. Just been to Japan and shot mostly hand held, yes ok its heavy with a battery belt, but not once you get use to it. Didn't use a blimp though.

 

I am currently sourcing a barney as need to do some internal sound shots shortly. Not the quietest of cameras for sure, but workable. For someone shooting low / no budget films and if you also contract (shoot for the money) music videos etc, then its an excellent all round camera. Lots of parts, spares, service agents etc around world wide.

 

Sure the BL3 is nicer, but for a full kit I priced it out at three times the price. Avoid the BL1 as its a nightmare if the electronics go. With the BL2 you can get a replacement electronic board that slots in. Hope this is of some help.

 

all the best.

[Rene212121]

I hate to ask one of those "what camera should I buy" questions, but since I already own one, hopefully I'm exempt from at least some of the name-calling that would be expected...

 

So, I really like my 2C.  It works well (when it's not -14 and my take-up tension isn't set too high, and my batteries aren't frozen), and I originally picked it up to cut down on the costs of renting equivalent gear while shooting a short over several weekends.

 

Here's my dilemma.. I am now starting to pick up some more work, and I'd like to investigate "upgrading" so to speak.  I'm considering selling my 2C and looking for an Arri III or an older BL1/2/3.  I anticipate doing some commercial work, and music videos, and for all this sort of stuff, the III seems like a good choice.  But I'd also naturally like to develop my own shorts and I'd reaaaly reaaaly like to try and cut down on the on-set camera noise, which is why I'm also considering a BL.  Help speed along post, less time spent on ADR, etc.

 

Can anyone offer some insights as to what the ups and downs would be when trying to decide between these two options?  Or if you think I'm overlooking some other options, I'd love to hear your input.

 

Again, hoping to cut down the cost of rentals (well, mostly the cost of insurance required for rentals in my neck of the woods.. ouch!) with the option to recover most of the investment at a later date.

 

-Sean

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I can tell you for my experience that the BL2 is a very good option, I own one and so far had shot many commercials and a feature film theatrical release by 20th Century Fox, it's true that it isn't the most quiet camera but nothing a barney or a blancket can't handle, I even shot a whole scene inside a small bathroom and didn't had to re record audio on that or any other scene, there are lots of primes sets in excellent condition on B mount. You'll have to use a blimp though but who cares? what you need is that your images look great not your camera. With 400' magazine and a prime is actually very compact. There's the option to convert it to PL mount so that's another choice, you can get a good package for around 20k so it's also very cost effective. I bought mine with 4 400's mags and primes blimp housing for around that number, and so far the investment has return many times over. And if you want to impress clients just wait 'till they see it with 1000 mag, zoom blimp housing and matte box...

[Guest kingofcomedy86]

Hey guys...for anyone interested I found a screamin BL2 kit for sale on ebay today. Unfortunately it is a little out of my price range, so I give this link to you guys! It's a buy it now for $14,200. http://cgi.ebay.com/Arriflex-35BL2-35mm-Ca...1QQcmdZViewItem

 

Hope this helps any of you interested! The guy even put up a video that shows all the features the camera has and what not. Very neat.

[Rolfe Klement]

always be careful of auctions that get relisted - try and see the physycal camera

 

Read the posts about ebay and camera scams

 

thanks

 

Rolfe

[Paul Bruening]

Hey Sean,

 

Long time, no see. I run my Arri IIB in an Arri blimp. I can't hear it run under any circumstances. If it wasn't for the footage counter, I wouldn't even know if it was on or off.

[Nguyen D. Nguyen]

On discussing noise level, does anyone have any idea what the noise level is for the Mitchell MKII and S35R cameras? The two are based on similar designs, and S35R stands for 'Silent 35mm Reflex', yet it's still categorized as an MOS camera?