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so we are losing 7265 and 7231 Plus-x


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where is it sold? Asia only? Imagine Acros in 16mm.

 

As I understand from speaking to our fuji rep and from what I've gathered on here, if you out in an order for enough stock, they'd cut it for you.

 

(I've just sent an e-mail off to Fuji UK enquiring actually)

 

Acros or the 400 would just be great.

 

 

All this news makes me feel extra bad & wasteful after accidently flashing a roll of 7231 last week :(

 

Also, the 7231 is the only B+W stock that they produce for the Aaton Minima, Hmm...

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Let me know what you find out about Fuji, Colum.

 

And Dan Hudgins over at reduser had this to say about Lucky Film in China:

 

"If you can get enough people together to make a run someday of fine grain black and white, Lucky Film in China may be interested, I hear rumor that Kodak is selling buildings or land off they have contracted so much the last few years (anyone been out there to see what's going on?)"

 

-T

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I shoot 5222 & 5231 in my stills camera and buy 400ft cans and respool. I managed to pick up some cans yesterday from my supplier for the freezer.

 

FilmoTec GmbH produce ORWO - in Germany - an MP film in 100 iso for 16mm & 35mm and a 400 iso in 16mm & 35mm but I have no idea what it is like from the point of view of you guys.

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Sounds good to me, Tim. Something like an upcoming Friday in a couple of weeks when the word starts to spread? Perhaps we should start another thread in the General Discussion forum in the next day or two to lay out a time and date. Would probably be good to get something going at the NY facility on the same day, too...

 

I guess we should all start seeing what kind of contacts we have in the press, too. Anybody?

 

Todd, I'm sending you a PM on this. Let's start planning.

 

Tim

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Anyone have any other ideas on how to get the word out to Kodak? It may be a slim chance to save, but it looks like petitions and blasts of e-mail to the corporate office is all we have at this point. Best to try those tactics now to see how they work since it will be the fight for color stocks in the upcoming years. Hopefully Fuji has a better business plan for what will become a niche market.

-T

 

I called Kodak yesterday, and they referred me back to my rep. As I'm in Chicago, my rep is Ericka Frederick. She told me the best thing to do was send your rep an email (in this case I sent it to her), expressing the reasons why you think Kodak should reconsider their decision, and your rep will send it on to the right people at Kodak.

 

Here's the email I sent:

 

To Kodak Motion Picture Management,

 

It was with sadness and dismay that I read of the discontinuation of Eastman Plus-X Negative Film 7231. I run the Arri16S.com web site, which is dedicated to the thousands of folks who still use the little Arriflex 16S camera, and who visit my site each year (over 17,000 last year alone). These are folks who want to shoot film in our "digital age" and I would think that they're just the type of folks Kodak would want to attract.

 

One of the great things about shooting 16mm film (as opposed to digital) is the beauty of Black & White. There still isn't a way to "desaturate" digitally captured color to get the same rich blacks, bright whites, and beautiful grays that you get from black & white negative film. And in the 16mm format, there is no better Black & White film than Plus-X Negative 7231.

 

Double-X, 7222, is not a substitute in 16mm. The grain structure of 7222 is overwhelming when blown up from such a small negative. 5222 is a beautiful stock, as demonstrated by Gordon Willis in "Manhattan" and by Stephen H. Burum in "Rumble Fish", but 35mm 5222 doesn't need the extreme enlargement that 16mm 7222 does.

 

Is there a way to continue 7231 and 5222 while eliminating 7222 and 5231. That would seem to be a good compromise if Kodak is trying to decrease their Black & White offerings.

 

Thank you for your time and I look forward to hearing from you.

 

Best,

-Tim Carroll

www.Arri16S.com

 

I think if we all start by sending emails to our reps, I think many of them will get forwarded to the right folks at Kodak, and maybe if they see an uproar, they will reconsider.

 

Best,

-Tim

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Regarding a PETITION, I don't mean to discount other efforts (simply add to them), but www.40frames.org will have a petition to

endorse on our website by the end of next week. I'll post here when it's up on the site.

 

40 Frames did a similar petition when Kodak announced discontinuing 7360, 7361 and 7250. Of course, it wasn't successfully, but the effort can help to send a message and show a certain level of interest. Though such petitions would probably have to gain 10,000 endorsements to get Kodak's attention.

 

 

As for other BLACK & WHITE camera negatives, FOMAPAN reversal processed as negative, ORWO UN54 and N74, and one can process Kodak 7266 (Tri-X) as negative.

 

ORWO looks great, as good as 7231 or 7222 IMHO, but it's expensive when compared to Kodak (about $90/400 ft last I used it), there's no education discount, and for those of us on this side of the pond it has to be shipped from Germany which adds to the expense. There are some labs however that you may be able to work with to include some camera stock in their next order to print stock from ORWO. I number of labs in North American are printing BWN on ORWO.

 

Last I talked with ORWO about expanding into the North American market they expressed low interest and no immediate future plans to market their stocks in the North America.

 

The downside of ORWO is it tends to shed a lot compared to Kodak stocks, at least this has been my experience when running ORWO through my Aaton XTR. The last bit of UN54 I shot and printed on 7302 looked amazing, a nice blue black similar to the old Ilford BWN but with better contrast like Kodak.

 

 

Alain

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Let me know what you find out about Fuji, Colum.

 

Re: special order of Neopan CN/Acros in 16mm.

 

"Hello 
Yes you are correct, the factory would need an order for a few million feet before they would run the production, also I think the processing would also be a problem.
However you could use Vivid 160 or 500 as its a high contrast stock, then desaturate the colour and you end up with a great B&W image, the NFTS did some tests recently and the results we stunning, I suggest you try this stock.
"

- Colin Ricardo

Business Manager

Motion Picture Products

Fujifilm UK Ltd

 

That's a disappointment, I was under the impression it would be something like 10K feet.

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ORWO looks great, as good as 7231 or 7222 IMHO, but it's expensive when compared to Kodak (about $90/400 ft last I used it), there's no education discount, and for those of us on this side of the pond it has to be shipped from Germany which adds to the expense. There are some labs however that you may be able to work with to include some camera stock in their next order to print stock from ORWO. I number of labs in North American are printing BWN on ORWO.

 

Thanks for the info, Alain.

 

And encouraging that there is another petition going, for what ever that is worth. How many endorsements did you get last time around?

 

Also, how fine grained is the low speed ORWO compared to the 7231? What about the faster ORWO stock? (especially for 16mm) Have you telecined any of the 16mm on a Spirit, as well? And how much shedding are we talking? I have an XTR, too.

 

And Column, is it worthwhile to ask your contact at Fuji how their motion products are doing in general? I guess he can't exactly divulge a short or long term business plan, but I'm just curious as to what their outlook, and attitude for that matter, is for color stock. Glad to know they got a little bump with Hurt Locker winning at the Oscars.

 

Thanks,

Todd

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FYI...

 

I've completed a first draft of the petition and posted it in PDF format in a new thread titled, "Plus-X Petition - FIRST DRAFT."

 

Excellent work, Bill.

 

Any reason why you started the thread in the "Cinematographers" Sub-forum? Maybe start another in this "Film Stocks and Processing" Sub-forum so people can find it easier. Or in "General Information." I only mention it because I couldn't find it at first.

 

Tim

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And Column, is it worthwhile to ask your contact at Fuji how their motion products are doing in general?

 

In a word, no - I'd be asking our local Fuji guy in Dublin and I doubt they're privy to much info - although very helpful & decent.

 

I'm sure there's plenty of lads on here who have a decent relationship with Fuji UK who could find out such things.

 

 

Hurt Locker should have given them a boost for sure, but I doubt they're gonna eat into Kodaks share - Slumdog didn't seem to give them a great boost.

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Thanks for the info, Alain.

 

And encouraging that there is another petition going, for what ever that is worth. How many endorsements did you get last time around?

 

Also, how fine grained is the low speed ORWO compared to the 7231? What about the faster ORWO stock? (especially for 16mm) Have you telecined any of the 16mm on a Spirit, as well? And how much shedding are we talking? I have an XTR, too.

 

And Column, is it worthwhile to ask your contact at Fuji how their motion products are doing in general? I guess he can't exactly divulge a short or long term business plan, but I'm just curious as to what their outlook, and attitude for that matter, is for color stock. Glad to know they got a little bump with Hurt Locker winning at the Oscars.

 

Thanks,

Todd

 

 

Todd,

 

Last petition received several thousand endorsements, impressive but not impressive enough. I think sales are more impressive than

endorsements. And I think color reversal by comparison is less popular than Plus-X (7231, 7265).

 

The UN54 (100) as I recall is similar to 7231 in grain structure. What I did not test was pull process, as this can increase your latitude and lower the grain. Worth a test, I'd try it if you wan to shoot some ORWO.

 

The shedding issue I may have been able to eliminate if make a small adjustment to the mag pressure shoe. I didn't bother because I was plenty happy with 7231 and could get it cheaper than ORWO.

 

I did telecine the ORWO on a Spirit, why do ask?

 

 

Alain

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Excellent work, Bill.

 

Any reason why you started the thread in the "Cinematographers" Sub-forum?

 

Yup. I was dead tired and didn't even realize I'd posted there...LOL.

 

I'll move it to General Discussion. Thanks.

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I did telecine the ORWO on a Spirit, why do ask?

 

 

Alain

 

 

Alain,

 

Regarding asking about the ORWO telecined on a Spirt, I was just trying to get a feel for how the grain structure resolved when doing so. If it was comparable to the 7231.

 

About the shedding, I went to the English website of the company that sells the ORWO, and it mentions that they have a "plus" stock out on the 400 speed film of theirs. And it actually specifically states that their is less shedding now. Maybe it is more Aaton friendly now. No mention of an updated to the 100 speed stock, though.

 

And I agree. Thousands of units sold are better than a thousand signatures. Coincidentally, I was down in L.A. today buying 1,200 feet of Plus-X (not surprisingly)... about all I can do for the day I suppose...

 

Todd

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As for other BLACK & WHITE camera negatives, FOMAPAN reversal processed as negative, ORWO UN54 and N74, and one can process Kodak 7266 (Tri-X) as negative.

 

Alain

 

 

Just a point of clarity here, FOMAPAN R100 cannot be processed as a negative, only as reversal. I believe this is because of its silver anti-halation layer. Processed as negative, you simply get a roll of black film. This silver has to be bleached off in the reversal process. So the only current alternative for negative black and white MP film is ORWO. There is a bw MP emulsion made by TASMA in Russia (or is it the Ukraine, I forget) but not in 16mm.

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P.S.: Didn't Fuji or Ilford use to make a low speed B&W motion stock for the states, as well? Is there any other alternatives?

 

Ilford USED to sell their negative stocks as Motion picture film, but they have said that they ARE NOT PLANNING to resume this practice after they started up again after the management buyout.

 

I suspect that the reason is curent Motion picture films have the footage numbers as bar codes and the old Ilford film just had regular numbers. They would have to invest in a lot of new equipment to make modern bar coded film. They then would also have nasty folks like myself wantig to buy the movie stock for still use, cutting their still market.

 

I have herd that Fuji only sells B&W movie stock in the Asian market. I on't know if this would be enough of an oportunity for them to make the effort to Market the product in North america (need to make an English/French/Spanish package for example.)

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Just a point of clarity here, FOMAPAN R100 cannot be processed as a negative, only as reversal. I believe this is because of its silver anti-halation layer. Processed as negative, you simply get a roll of black film. This silver has to be bleached off in the reversal process. So the only current alternative for negative black and white MP film is ORWO. There is a bw MP emulsion made by TASMA in Russia (or is it the Ukraine, I forget) but not in 16mm.

Perfectly correct. Fomapan R(eversal) 100 has a thin but plain silver undercoat layer as protection against halo on a colourless triacetate base. It's got to be truly reversed.

 

For the rest I can recommend Orwo stocks. These are modern black-and-white films manufactured by Agfa-Gevaert and at Wolfen, where Agfa started its motion-picture film business in 1909. Orwo UN 54 can be seen even finer grained than Eastman PXN was. I have developed almost every black-white make, including Svema, Shostka, Agfa Scala, Efke, Neopan, Polypan. How says Arnie repeatedly? Trhrusst me, baby!

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In a word, no - I'd be asking our local Fuji guy in Dublin and I doubt they're privy to much info - although very helpful & decent.

 

I'm sure there's plenty of lads on here who have a decent relationship with Fuji UK who could find out such things.

 

 

Hurt Locker should have given them a boost for sure, but I doubt they're gonna eat into Kodaks share - Slumdog didn't seem to give them a great boost.

 

 

Colin,

 

 

have you or could you pass along a link to your Fuji rep, of this and other related threads. Just so they know about the petitions and such. They might reconsider things.

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Colin,

 

 

have you or could you pass along a link to your Fuji rep, of this and other related threads. Just so they know about the petitions and such. They might reconsider things.

 

Can do, couldnt do any harm.

 

Maybe everyone could bombard their respective reps, agents & resellers with those links?

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Ilford black and white do list their FP4 as a motion picture stock with a catalogue number for 35mm (200' lengths).

You can find it here in their current catalogue PDF

http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/20093161552402063.pdf

They also have a 'new product request' button in their 'products' tab.

http://www.ilfordphoto.com/products/newproductrequest.asp

If people are interested in this option for 16mm, why not submit the request. I have. I reckon if several people do it might eventually amount to something.

give it a go!

richard

Edited by Richard Tuohy
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  • 4 weeks later...

Kodak have announced the discontinuation of 7265 plus-x reversal (in 16mm and Super 8) as well as Plus-x Neg in 16mm and 35mm.

Its a sad day.

 

Just had a look at the discontinuation notice - I see the 16mm 100ft rolls have been affected too. Is it just the 2R ones?

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  • 3 weeks later...

 

 

I woke up this morning and it pretty much set it: their decision is ridiculous. Their black and white stocks are the only thing left that clearly look like classic film stocks. While the newer color stocks have great latitude, they are so clean they can verge on the side of looking digital at times. Making a Vision3 stock "b&w" at the digital intermediate stage or during telecine does not even come close to looking like 5231 / 7231. I just telecine such a test at 2K, and the results were night and day. You might as well just shoot digital and make it B&W.

 

I wish Kodak would market "classic stocks" (5231 / 7231, and older EXR stocks, as well) as an alternative to the digital look and there own fine grained stocks.

 

 

 

Todd

 

P.S.: Didn't Fuji or Ilford use to make a low speed B&W motion stock for the states, as well? Is there any other alternatives?

 

 

I agree with you-- the new Kodak negative stocks look like digital video on a good day-- just way too translucent and detailed. What's missing is that old fashioned contrast, saturation and density. The glubby look, in other words.

 

E100D is an interesting alternative, though... Sharp and very saturated, almost too much so.

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