Night shoot underwater in a swimming pool

[Guest Jonathan Rippon]

I'm shooting a short film in a couple weeks and there are some sequences that take place underwater in a swimming pool at night. I was wondering how I could illuminate the actors swimming under the water in such a way that the light would look like moonlight coming through the water. I don't want the pool light to be on at first, so all of the light would have to come from above the water. Also, how would I meter the light underwater? Can I rent an underwater light meter? My budget is somewhat flexable, so any suggestions would help.

 

I'd be shooting on 16mm using Kodak's 500 Vision 2 Expression. I'm not entirly sure what rig I'm going to be using to shoot this - does anybody have any suggestions? (I'm shooting all the above-water stuff w/ an ArriSR1). I'm a student and know very little about cinematography so any feedback you can give me would help tremendously, thanks :)

[Laurent Andrieux]

Hi, I shot a short in a swimming pool once.

 

It would help if you would give a few more informations :

 

 

- are there port-holes in the underground, in the depth of the pool ? This helps a lot, both for lighting and seeing the underwater scene.

 

- what size is the pool ? do you want wide shots ? Do you have a tight box ?

 

The problem is the water cuts off the light pretty soon and the deeper the cene is, the less light remains. So the place the action is has a lot to do. If the director wants the action to be deep in the water and you don't have port-holes, it becomes very hard to do...

 

You could have lights outside, that directly light the water in the moon-like direction. HMI are good for a good power, but it's not easy to have them turning on in the shot. You work tungsten Depending on the size of both pool and shots I would go for 5 and 10 K Fresnel, close to the water, outside the frame. if HMI I would go for 2.5, 4 and 6 kw cinepars and luxarc sort of basis having a 1200 cinepar as well can give a bit of help. Difficult to figure out without a storyboard

 

If you can spread a cinepar through a port-hole in the undergroud, depth of the water, it works great.

 

As to measure the light, spotmeter !

 

For the focus, mind that the distances are changed (about a third closer)

Edited March 9, 2005 by laurent.a

[Bob Hayes]

I?ve done the kind of shot you are talking about by lighting from the outside of the pool as if you are lighting a night exterior and point the lights at the surface of the water. This gives you a night feel. Last time I did this a brought a couple of small underwater lightings into the pool to light the face of the swimmer. Remember electricity and water is very dangerous. Be sure you have inline ground fault interrupters on ALL lights near the water. Many people use DC around water I have not done that. Make sure all the lights are sand bagged to prevent them falling in the water. If you place lights in the water make sure they are rated for water use.

[Jeremy]

I haven't done it, nor do I ever plan to, but I've heard of gaffers putting regular lights (like a Molepar) into a pool and striking them to light under the water, saying that as long as it's completely submerged when striking, and that the cords are secure that it's safe...

 

Has anyone ever done / heard of people doing this?

[Patrick Neary]

that is truly, truly insane!

 

Do they also throw the toaster-oven from craft services in there too?

[Nate Yolles]

Well, I've seen it done. I was just a humble juicer on this show and the gaffer told us to throw a molepar in the pool. At first we just looked at him stunned and we did question him. He made it known that it was going to happen. So I rigged up the light and threw it in the pool. The other juicers weren't happy about the order either. I told him I wasn't going to plug it in, that he could do the honors and that I didn't want to be around when it happened. If I were the best boy, I would have put my foot down. Everything worked fine. Regardless, I would never do that myself or ask someone else to do it. :(

[Laurent Andrieux]

Do you think it would be the same in salted water ?

 

Nate : why wouldn't you do it though you saw it work ? Half conviced ? Do you think there are "conditions " one can do it or not ? Have an explanation why it works ?

[JONATHANEDWARDS]

I few years back i worked on a MOW that had a short sequence of this women doing laps in a pool. We had a underwater rig for the camera but no underwater lighting and shooting on 500 asa, the DP had 2 4k HMI lights bouncing off 12x12 silks hanging over the pool. This might not help so much with creating a moonlight effect but worked nicely for what we were doing.

 

The interesting thing was he did not meter underwater he had some sort of calculation for light loss per foot underwater. Hopefully some one here knows how to do this as i don't remember. :huh:

[Mario Jimenez]

Striken UNDER water???

 

well i kno that you can use arrisuns under rain IF they were turned on and the ballast is nice and dry, but to strike one under water???

 

haha seems a good idea just to test it, to get a 575k bulb on a lamp JUST to see what would happen to the head and maybe drop some fishes in the pool, to see what happens to them as well :P.

and a couple of prayers as well!

[Nate Yolles]

We left the lamp unplugged, turned the switch to "on", submerged the light, then plugged it into a lunch box with the breakers off at both the lunch box and back to the distro box. then turned the light on by throwing the breakers. So the light went on only after it was submerged and it was turned off and and allowed to sit for a while before being pulled out of the water.

 

Personally, rather than actually submerging a light, I would point a stronger unit into the pool. I might submerge some silver roscoflex to bounce the light throughout the pool.

[Patrick Neary]

If someone has a copy of Blain Brown's lighting book handy, I remember a short bit where he described plopping tungsten units into water like that.

 

Maybe I'm just an alarmist. I still can't believe anyone would actually do that, I mean, one or two things go wrong and you really could kill a person!

 

...here's a little tidbit:

 

From the Consumer Products Safety Commision:

 

Following are the causes of electrical deaths in the United States associated with pools in the years 1990-2002:

 

28 Plugged-in radios or stereos, extension cords or power tools

 

13 Underwater pool lights

 

10 Pool pumps

 

9 Sump pumps, pool vacuums or pressure washers

[JONATHANEDWARDS]

We left the lamp unplugged, turned the switch to "on", submerged the light, then plugged it into a lunch box with the breakers off at both the lunch box and back to the distro box. then turned the light on by throwing the breakers. So the light went on only after it was submerged and it was turned off and and allowed to sit for a while before being pulled out of the water.

 

Personally, rather than actually submerging a light, I would point a stronger unit into the pool. I might submerge some silver roscoflex to bounce the light throughout the pool.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

 

Was anyone in the pool at the time. i can't see a AD ok with puting a actor in the pool.

[Apu]

I'm just quoting Mr. John P at Kodak:

 

"Water and electricity are a very dangerous combination:

 

http://www.defence.gov.au/news/navynews/ed...n%20pool_th.jpg

 

http://www.diveweb.com/commdive/features/044.01.htm

 

--------------------

John Pytlak

Eastman Kodak Company

john.pytlak@kodak.com

http://www.kodak.com/go/motion"

[Rolfe Klement]

The Blain Brown book on nuderwater lighting is quite good. I have seen very very detailed stuff years ago on the web about this style of lighting

 

Underwater dance

 

but I cannot remeber where it was, or if it was about Howard. But from what I remember it is about shining loads of very hard flat light into the top of the pool straight down. Maybe even Xenons.

 

For the budget I would keep any lights out of the water.

 

thanks

 

Rolfe

[Mario Jimenez]

Well the thing is this....

 

under water you can only use a hermetically sealed lamp head because the current will NOT go thru the bulb fixture since water is a much better conductor than the bulb (hence NO HMI striking and NO tungsten wire resistance) so what you would be doing is just feeding current to the pool, and god forbid an actor is in there when you strike an HMI, for the striking voltage comes up to several thousand volts (to create the arc that will heat the gas in the little globe),

 

but yes a couple of good units would be 4ks PAR hmis good output+ manuverability plus!!!

[Matt Pacini]

For crying out loud, are you guys kidding me?

Do NOT toss a light into the pool and have people in there.

 

I've yet to hear someone state the physics of why they think the actors would NOT be fried if you did this.

Just saying "yeah, but so and so did it once" is not a good enough argument for me.

 

I can just imagine the actors are hearing something like "oh, it's OK, these are special lights" or whatever nonsense, to get them to jump in there.

 

Matt Pacini

[Patrick Neary]

I've yet to hear someone state the physics of why they think the actors would NOT be fried if you did this.

Just saying "yeah, but so and so did it once" is not a good enough argument for me.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think the general idea is that the connections are sealed (with silicone or hot glue)

 

But would anyone bet their life on the hot-glue-gun talents of the gaffer?

 

Suppose there's some compromise in the wiring insulation, that there's no GFCI, that the non-GFCI breaker doesn't trip, that there's no breaker at all, etc, etc. then yes you could very easily fry your actors, and anyone that comes in contact with them or the pool.

 

I suppose you could use real weapons and live ammo on a film set too, (i'm sure someone out there has) it's the same kind of insanely stupid idea!

[gnasr]

I did a comercial once with a little kid inside a big bath tub. The same place that rented the underwater housing for the aaton minima, rented a water resistent lightmeter that would compensate for light loss underwater.

 

As far as lighting is concerned, have a big hard light source coming from outside the pool. I think most swiming pools have their own lighting fixtures. Try to make them stronger by changing lamps.

Edited March 16, 2005 by gnasr

[timHealy]

Though it doesn't sound safe, water and electricity can be used together with precautions.

 

I forget the name of the company, but some one makes a 400 amp gfi (and probably other sizes) that may be used on your trunk runs to power a set. They can be very sensitive with the slightest notion of a short and they trip.

 

For extra safety smaller 20 amp gfi can be bought and used on individual lights and stingers running into pools and other water sources.

 

Hydroflex makes a variety of water proof tungsten, hmi and fluorescent lighting for use with actors and camera operators in the pool.

 

I have used a bare incadescent par bulb in a pool with no actors, with the connections silconed to death and it can work fine. I have a friend who did the same with a bare 10k bulb. But I suggest testing with any home made jobs. I wouldn't put a normal HMI in a pool ever.

 

As an electrician, when gfi's and caution are used, shooting around a pool can be safer than a normal shoot day doing a xmas scene. I had one job where we were doing a xmas scene with zip cord running to xmas lights on all the trees and bushes. Epson salt was added to look like snow and ice. Then the water truck came by and watered down the streets. Not a safe combination. Electricity was leaking everywhere. We should have had gfi's on everything that day as if we were shooting near water.

[Dan Salzmann]

Investigate what divers use if you need smaller lighting units. There are other specialized lighting units that are meant for underwater use. DO NOT rely on improv in this situation.

Make sure that all lights above ground are super well sandbagged and all connections seriously insulated.

[Paul Bruening]

Hello fellas,

 

Have you ever been swimming at night? Do you have any idea how many PARs are in the water with you? The cases on those things are sometimes filled with water leaving only the PAR globe between you and the electricity. In the old days, they used to solder the connectors on the mogul ends and goop them up with caulk. Between shock boxes, individual GFCIs, extra safety grounds to each light and minimum safe distances between persons in water and lights, your rig is as safe as many pool having lights built in (especially if you use PARs and cut them on and off in the water only). PARs are tough globes. As well, the entire pool does not become electrified (unless you pour a fifty pound sack of salt into it). A busted light creates a field around it. If you don't get anywhere near that field, then you won't get shocked. This is assuming, of course, that you have two marbles for brains. If you can't manage your safety factors, then shoot it poolside and stay out of the water.

 

I always get in trouble over these kinds of posts. I apologize in advance.

[Chris Keth]

Though it doesn't sound safe, water and electricity can be used together with precautions.

 

I forget the name of the company, but some one makes a 400 amp gfi (and probably other sizes) that may be used on your trunk runs to power a set. They can be very sensitive with the slightest notion of a short and they trip.

 

For extra safety smaller 20 amp gfi can be bought and used on individual lights and stingers running into pools and other water sources.

 

Hydroflex makes a variety of water proof tungsten, hmi and fluorescent lighting for use with actors and camera operators in the pool.

 

I have used a bare incadescent par bulb in a pool with no actors, with the connections silconed to death and it can work fine. I have a friend who did the same with a bare 10k bulb. But I suggest testing with any home made jobs. I wouldn't put a normal HMI in a pool ever.

 

As an electrician, when gfi's and caution are used, shooting around a pool can be safer than a normal shoot day doing a xmas scene. I had one job where we were doing a xmas scene with zip cord running to xmas lights on all the trees and bushes. Epson salt was added to look like snow and ice. Then the water truck came by and watered down the streets. Not a safe combination. Electricity was leaking everywhere. We should have had gfi's on everything that day as if we were shooting near water.

 

 

One problem with those 20 and 400 Amp GFIs, it only takes a hundred or so milliamperes taking the right route through a person to kill them! Lighting underwater without proper sealed lights is just stupid and irresponsible. As for siliconing the connections, what if the lamp breaks in the water? It's not out of the question, considering that lamps are made to burn in air, not water.

[Sidney King]

just wrapping your light meter in a couple(obviously watertight) zip-loc baggies works fine for metering underwater. Did the trick for our (daytime) shoot.

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

I understand why dunking discharge lamps works for some people. I should imagine that Kinos probably work fine submerged.

 

However, this does not modify my opinion that it's an astonishingly bad - and completely uninsurable - idea.

 

Phil

[Stephen Williams]

Hi,

 

I understand why dunking discharge lamps works for some people. I should imagine that Kinos probably work fine submerged.

 

However, this does not modify my opinion that it's an astonishingly bad - and completely uninsurable - idea.

 

Phil

 

Hi,

 

I saw a 24v 150w dedo light dropped into water while working. It was a sales pitch!

 

Stephen