35mm vrs S35mm

chooser · March 23, 2005

I believe this is the right forum for this qustion. Just wanted to know the advantages of Super 35mm over 35mm. Just wanted to know how DOPs handle the different ratios. Not looking for anything specific, just wanted some general comments and feedback or pros cons, like, don't like etc .... thanks

David Mullen ASC · March 23, 2005

I believe this is the right forum for this qustion. Just wanted to know the advantages of Super 35mm over 35mm. Just wanted to know how DOPs handle the different ratios. Not looking for anything specific, just wanted some general comments and feedback or pros cons, like, don't like etc .... thanks

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First of all, Super-35 does not really have one "ratio" -- theorectically, Super-35 is the same as Full Aperture (i.e. using the whole negative including the area reserved for the soundtrack) and with a 4-perf 35mm camera, that means a 1.33 : 1 aspect ratio. With a 3-perf 35mm camera, Full Aperture is about 1.78 : 1.

However, most people shooting Super-35 are framing for cropping vertically to some widescreen aspect ratio, most often either 1.78 for TV (16x9) or 2.39 for release as 35mm anamorphic (scope) prints.

So Super-35 is sort of a multiple aspect ratio format, different ratios achieved by framing for cropping in post in mind.

The main reason Super-35 is still not the standard for theatrical features is that it cannot be contact-printed through all steps because it uses the area reserved for the optical soundtrack stripe for picture information, unlike when shooting in a Sound Aperture format (1.37 Academy, 1.85 matted widescreen, 2.39 anamorphic widescreen, all of which do not use the soundtrack area on the left edge of the negative.) So Super-35 requires an optical printer step or a digital intermediate step to convert the image to one of the standard sound aperture release print formats. But for TV work, Super-35 has become the standard since you don't need to bother with contact-printing or putting a soundtrack on the film.

If you are planning release prints in the 2.39 anamorphic ("scope") format, your choices are Super-35 framed from cropping to 2.39 or shooting with anamorphic lenses. There are lots of pros and cons; the main ones are that Super-35 allows you to use normal spherical lenses, whereas the anamorphic format uses a bigger negative area than Super-35 cropped to 2.39.

Patrick Neary · March 23, 2005

I can address the advantages of 1.33 S-35 (and repeat myself from another thread), as i switched from academy to "big TV" for shooting tv spots- The main advantage is the much bigger negative area we telecine from, and that's a very good thing if the director is grain-o-phobic.

The disadvantages might be that if the Ac finds even a small hair or spuzz in the gate, it means a retake; there's no room for slop, where you can get away with finding half of someone's toupee in an academy gate.

Also a there are lenses out there that won't cover the full S35 frame, I haven't run into any yet, but my understanding is that it's mostly older zooms. It's easy to check during prep, however.

Adam Frisch FSF · March 23, 2005

Also a there are lenses out there that won't cover the full S35 frame, I haven't run into any yet, but my understanding is that it's mostly older zooms. It's easy to check during prep, however.

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They always end up adding vignetting in post anyway to "focus the eye to the middle", so why not shoot with old lenses that doesn't cover it to begin with? :D

Jon Rosenbloom · April 12, 2005

I know "The Door in The Floor" was shot super-35 and went thru a DI. It was quite grainy on the big screen.

Dominik Muench · April 13, 2005

i heard that shooting 3 perf super 35mm saves film as well, could someone explain to me how this is possible or did i just understand something wrong ?

Landon D. Parks · April 13, 2005

3perf saves film because it only uses 3 perfs per picture, instead of 4. Meaning that you save something like 30% or so on film stock, Telecine, processing, ect.

Lets say if you pay $0.45/foot for your film, 1 hour in 4 perf would be $2,430.00 where as one hour of 3perf would be $1,845.00.

It works the same throuhgout the rest of the process also, you only scan 4,050' per hour instead of 5,400 so you naturally pay less for the services.

A great place to learn a lot about 3-perf is Arri's website. Click on products, then Arricam. About halfway down the page youll see "Read more on 3-perf technology". Click there and it will take you to a whole page on how it works, and how it saves money. There is also a video on there that explains it.

good luck.

Stephen Williams · April 13, 2005

3perf saves film because it only uses 3 perfs per picture, instead of 4. Meaning that you save something like 30% or so on film stock, Telecine, processing, ect.

good luck.

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Hi there,

You won't make any savings on telecine at all! The running time will be longer! The only place you save is film + processing. Camera rental may be more expensive as only a few companies have 3 perf cameras.

Stephen Williams DoP

Zurich

www.stephenw.com

Landon D. Parks · April 15, 2005

Let me quote from Arri's website:

3 perforation post production: efficiency up, costs down

3 perforation has been used extensively for television series to reduce production costs while still retaining a high quality 35 mm film master, which can be transferred to any future video format if needed. All modern telecines can accommodate film shot at 3 perforations per frame. But in the past theatrical productions have shied away from 3 perforations because of the difficulty of creating a 4 perforation release print from a 3 perforation negative.

With the advent of the Digital Intermediate and the fast rising popularity of the ARRILASER, two closely related developments, many producers are now looking at shooting 3 perforation for a theatrical release.

The Digital Intermediate process makes it possible to scan the complete 3 perforation negative, perform all post-production steps in the digital realm, and then use the ARRILASER to record the images back onto 4 perforation Internegative (IN) or Interpositive (IP) to create standard spherical or anamorphic 4 perforation release prints.

Changes in lab processes have also improved the quality of the optical step necessary to go from a 3 perforation negative to a 4 perforation release print, providing a second alternative.

It doesn't matter which way you go in post - analog or digital:

3 perforation offers the most efficient and economical way to 35mm film production.

Less cost, more shooting time - with the same image quality

Instead of a traditional 4 perforation movement, which advances the film 4 perforations for each new image, a 3 perforation movement advances the film only 3 perforations, thus eliminating the previously unused space between frames. This results in a 25% savings in film stock and lab costs with no reduction in image quality. In addition, the film in each magazine lasts 33% longer, making film production more efficient.

How 3 Perforation works

For a basic introduction to 3 perforation watch this clip.

Most wide screen 35mm projection formats, including 1.85 and Super 35/2.35, do not use the full 4 perforation height of the 35mm frame. They fit easily between 3 perforations. In fact, the only two formats that use the entire 4 perforation height for picture information are anamorphic photography and material originated specifically for 4:3 full-frame TV transfer.

ARRI supplies optional 3 perforation movements, format masks and groundglasses for the ARRIFLEX 435 and 535, and for the ARRICAM System.

Cost:
25% less raw stock, dailies, answer prints, Intermediate Positive. Savings in developing, preparation, cleaning and handling of negative Additional film savings due to fewer short ends with extended magazine running times

Shooting Time per Magazine:

33% more running time, longer takes. Extended running time with 400ft/120m lightweight magazines for handheld work. More takes per magazine.

Capture Requirements:

35mm camera with 3 perforation movement (e.g. ARRICAM Studio and Lite, ARRIFLEX 435, ARRIFLEX 535B)

Sound:

No difference between 3 perforation and 4 perforation production

Video dailies:
Telecine with 3 perforation capability (e.g. Spirit, Genesis, C-Reality)

Film dailies: 3 perforation film projector for screening dailies (e.g. ARRI Locpro 35)

Editing: Nonlinear editing system (e.g AVID, FCP) with cut list output in 3 perforation

Theatrical release optical process: optical printing from 3 perforation negative to 4 perforation Intermediate Positive or Intermediate Negative.

Theatrical release digital intermediate: Scanning of negative, then recording on 4 perforation Intermediate Positive or Intermediate Negative (e.g. ARRILASER)

I think that sais it all... It clearly sais that Telecine can be done @ 3perf too... So how will your running time be longer? Telecine is hcarged by the foot, so if you have less footage to start with, how could it cost you more?

Edited April 15, 2005 by Landon D. Parks

Michael Most · April 15, 2005

Hi there,

You won't make any savings on telecine at all! The running time will be longer! The only place you save is film + processing.

This is somewhat correct. Telecine is not charged by footage, it is charged by running time. Therefore, given the same running time, there is no significant savings in telecine due to 3 perf, save that of a little less time for changeovers. There is also no savings in telecine when using 16mm rather than 35mm, for the same reason (charged by running time, not by footage).