[NYC]: Talented DP Needed -- FEMALE DP's PREFERRED

[Chris Millar]

Why would that change the arguments already presented ?

 

Unless you're pointing out the implied gender in the term 'cameraman' ? In which case it's ok for a male to apply for the position of camerawoman etc. (?)

 

The terms DoP and cinematographer solved that already...

 

Edit... and by saying 'guys' - is that another point made ? :)

Edited December 23, 2014 by Chris Millar

[Freya Black]

The terms DoP and cinematographer solved that already...

 

Phew! So glad that problem has been solved:

 

https://twitter.com/cameramanneeded

 

http://uk.jobrapido.com/Cameraman-jobs

 

http://www.gumtree.com/all/london/cameraman

 

http://www.productionbase.co.uk/film-tv-jobs/lighting-cameraman-09.14.0079633

 

http://www.studentjob.co.uk/vacancies/10115-cameraman-video-production-intern-in-london

 

It's funny how guys so often tell women that all the problems are over these days and there is nothing stopping them, but heres a thing... until I just did a quick search of the term "cameraman" in google I had no idea that any of these websites or twitter feeds or any of this stuff existed because until now it's never occured to me to do a search on the term. I'm sure when other women are looking for work that they too won't think to search for the term "cameraman", yet it's amazing the sheer volume of work being advertised under this term. Even I'm shocked and I have a better understanding that there are serious problems than many other people posting here.

 

Freya

[Chris Millar]

I mean that the gender specific terminology has been solved with 'DoP' and 'cinematographer'.

 

I'm not saying it's all that is required to solve the gender imbalance in the industry - but it's something.

 

Your links are examples of the gender specific terminology problem in it's base state, but I figured we had already established that as given. It's a part of what we're talking about huh?

[Freya Black]

I mean that the gender specific terminology has been solved with 'DoP' and 'cinematographer'.

 

...and sound recordist, camera operator, boom operator, self shooter and countless other terms that are non gender specific and often also far, far more useful but I still see the gendered terms being used all the time in job ads. It's really common. In fact they are very often more used in job advertisements than they are in any other kind of professional context where the gendered terms are far more rarely used.

 

Freya

[David Mullen ASC]

I'm as much for diversity on a film crew as any progressive, but I think the point here is that you can't be gender specific in a job listing except under special circumstances. Since you can't say that the job of cinematographer requires a certain age (other than being an adult) or sex to be able to do the work, you can't really hire based on those characteristics, not in the U.S. Now of course a director hiring a cinematographer makes a decision based on all sort of qualities beyond mere skill or experience -- you get into all sorts of nebulous issues like "personality" or artistic sensibilities, etc. which means that it would be pretty hard to prove in court that a decision was motivated by prejudice.

 

Which is one reason why the sexism against women is so insidious in Hollywood, half the men involved in hiring don't even realize that they are making decisions partly just on the gut feeling that the job "feels" like it belongs to a man -- they don't have the imagination or openness of spirit to see a woman in that particular job.

 

Sure, if you look at the general population, not a lot of people in general are attracted to cinematography. But if you look at film schools, which range from being one-third to half female, you have to wonder why the attrition rate is so high after graduation, to the point that not only 3% of major cinematographers out there are women, but something like only 10-15% of the successful screenwriters, a job where these cliche notions that "girls don't like technology" doesn't come into play much. You can argue that it will probably be unlikely to achieve a 50/50 balance of the sexes in all of these Hollywood jobs (but who knows what the future may bring) but clearly the attrition rate after graduation from film school is higher for the women who went than for the men, so there are other issues than simply "women aren't interested" involved. Even the demands of raising a family cannot account completely for why more women drop out of the film industry over time than men.

 

What disturbs me is not only the ingrained casual sexism of so many men, but the self-inflicted sexism of many young women, deliberately limiting their dreams of what they can achieve. I'm sure they pick that up at a young age but it probably gets intensified in adolescence. Boys are encouraged, even pressured, to be ambitious (i.e. "be a man!") and the stress of that can be positive or negative, but it does instill this notion that one is supposed to do something important with one's life that will lead to career and financial success (and it leads to much depression if that doesn't happen). I think many girls are simply told "it would be nice if you wanted to do something with your life..." but that lack of pressure and expectation can also lead to a lack of drive, the desire to think big. You behave differently when you have a sociological gun to your head.

 

I certainly don't think there is any genetic reason for men to prefer technological pursuits over women -- for one thing, if you look at working male cinematographers, they run the gamut of personality types, some more masculine than others, some more aggressive than others, some more leaders than others. So most of this is nurture, not nature.

[Freya Black]

 

Your links are examples of the gender specific terminology problem in it's base state, but I figured we had already established that as given. It's a part of what we're talking about huh?

 

Very much so!

 

I'm just trying to get people to think more about this aspect of it all.

I mean it seems to me that if someone was just asking for a camerawoman that this would actually be far worse as it would be clear that only women should apply whereas this ad suggests anyone can apply but that they may not be treated equally.

 

It seems apparent to me that there are tons of guys ready to jump all over anyone who might suggest that they would prefer a female worker in a job but that nobody blinks an eyelid when it is suggested that the job is only for men. It's very rare for anyone to suggest they might prefer a woman in the job but very common for people to suggest they would prefer a man, yet it's only in the former situation that there is this sense of outrage.

 

Again I have to say that I don't see why positive discrimination is so much worse than the usual kind.

 

Freya

[Guest]

 

What makes you say that? It doesn't appear that the film schools are overrun by guys?

Is that the case in Canada that 95% of the film students are male?

 

Freya

 

You'd have to look at the application rate to the film schools of men vs women, more men applying will mean more men graduating. When I was in the film program at university, women where non existent and that was a US university, not Canadian. Again there was no policy barring anyone based on gender that is for certain. I was involved in the TV end of my school, and we didn't have any women who were editors or news camera opps. They all wanted to be anchors and reporters. So we had an imbalance of men who wanted to be directors and TDs, and too many women that wanted to be on-air personalities.

 

BTW, I'm curious, what is your position in the film industry?

 

R,

[Freya Black]

 

BTW, I'm curious, what is your position in the film industry?

 

R,

 

I'm based in the UK so theres no "film" industry but I used to do Cinematography type stuff and in the past I used to be a sound recordist too. I made very little from it however and I'm probably going to wind it down at this point for a lot of reasons. I was well known as an experimental filmmaker at some point in between too.

 

What makes you ask?

 

Freya

[Freya Black]

. It's very rare for anyone to suggest they might prefer a woman in the job but very common for people to suggest they would prefer a man, yet it's only in the former situation that there is this sense of outrage.

 

Sorry I mistyped this. I obviously meant to say that it's very rare for anyone to suggest they might prefer a woman in the job but very common for people to suggest they only want a man for the job.

 

Freya

[Dan Finlayson]

 

Being a white male hasn't really helped me, it's tough no matter what. And that was the point of my earlier post.

 

 

That's quite a claim to make. You certainly have benefited from being white and male, doesn't matter what industry you're in.

 

Seeing fewer female applicants does not prove that women are less interested in technical roles. http://cdn.twentytwowords.com/wp-content/uploads/Spurious-Correlations-01-685x432.jpg?f870c3

 

Of course, the original job post is inappropriate, I agree there.

[David Mullen ASC]

 

You'd have to look at the application rate to the film schools of men vs women, more men applying will mean more men graduating.

Sure, that would explain why it isn't 50/50, but when the graduation rate in film schools is more like 30/70 women to men, it doesn't explain why it ends up being 3/97 for cinematographers, or 15/85 for screenwriters. And these numbers for film schools and for the industry have been true for a decade at least. Maybe in the long term, it will become a closer match, I don't know.

[Freya Black]

 

You'd have to look at the application rate to the film schools of men vs women, more men applying will mean more men graduating. When I was in the film program at university, women where non existent and that was a US university, not Canadian. Again there was no policy barring anyone based on gender that is for certain. I was involved in the TV end of my school, and we didn't have any women who were editors or news camera opps. They all wanted to be anchors and reporters. So we had an imbalance of men who wanted to be directors and TDs, and too many women that wanted to be on-air personalities.

 

BTW, I'm curious, what is your position in the film industry?

 

R,

 

The women were non existent but too many of them wanted to be on-air personalities? ;)

 

Freya

Edited December 23, 2014 by Freya Black

[Freya Black]

On a funnier note... this is indirectly related to what we are talking about and I just know that Richard is going to get a kick out of this ad I came across the other day:

 

http://jobs.theguardian.com/job/5988367/graduate-editor/

 

Freya

[Guest]

 

The women were non existent but too many of them wanted to be on-air personalities? ;)

 

Freya

 

I was referencing two separate programs if you look at my post. The film dept and the TV/Communications dept. In the film dept women were non-existent, in the communications dept women were more numerous, but had little interest in being TV studio directors, TDs, and camera opps.

 

R,

[Guest]

What makes you ask?

 

Freya

 

Just because I didn't know, now I do.

 

R,

[Guest]

 

That's quite a claim to make. You certainly have benefited from being white and male, doesn't matter what industry you're in.

 

Really? I don't see how being a white male has benefited me in the film industry? Other than possibly relating on some level to the fact that the filmmakers I idolized from a young age were all white males?

 

Aside from that, as a producer there is no policy at any bank that says, "we lend to white males before anyone else." Anyone can apply for a production loan. Provided they are crazy enough to do so. :D

 

Yes most of the borrowers in film finance are men I am sure. But again, there is no law or barrier in the US and Canada that prevents any woman from obtaining a production loan from a lender and producing a movie.

 

R,

[Guest]

On a funnier note... this is indirectly related to what we are talking about and I just know that Richard is going to get a kick out of this ad I came across the other day:

 

http://jobs.theguardian.com/job/5988367/graduate-editor/

 

Freya

 

Well I 100% qualify on this level:

 

"You will need to be from the US or Canada and have the right to work in the UK from Jan 5^th- March 5th 2015"

 

Who else will they find that has dual UK/Canadian citizenship?

 

But 1000.00 pounds a month? Waaaaaa? Not enough to buy myself a Terry's Chocolate Orange!

 

R,

[Freya Black]

 

Just because I didn't know, now I do.

 

R,

 

Ah, well I'm keen not to make this about me on a personal level.

I've already probably said too much about my own experiences albeit in the 3rd person.

 

Freya

[Guest]

 

Ah, well I'm keen not to make this about me on a personal level.

I've already probably said too much about my own experiences albeit in the 3rd person.

 

Freya

 

Sorry, but for now you're single handily carrying the woman's banner on this forum! :rolleyes: I don't see any others?

 

R,

[Mark Kenfield]

Granted we're all well off topic now, but I have a bit of a hunch that the specific gender inequality in camera departments is going to improve quite rapidly over the next 5-10 years. The majority of my ACs (and my go-to people in particular) are women these days. Most of the sets I'm working on have a very even spread of men/women. And I'm having more and more frequent conversations with girls who are expressing interest in cameras, blocking, colour, movement, composition and their respective impacts on mood and storytelling.

 

Lighting still doesn't seem to get much love or interest from the ladies, but camera certainly seems to be. I think we're in for a bit of boom of female cinematographic talent in the coming years.

[Adrian Sierkowski]

One of my favorite grips is a woman-- in fact a few of my grips over time have been woman. Thinking of it, almost all my ACs are women as well and I have the distinct pleasure to sometimes work under some of them as they DP things (as a gaffer on smaller projects).

 

Perhaps this is the good side to the democratization of camera technology.

[Phil Rhodes]

I have a favourite female AD. I think women are particularly useful in that role, if it's not patronising to either gender to say so, because I find it's easier for women to exercise authority over men without it becoming a shouting match.

 

If that's so, of course, it may just be another way in which traditional gender roles affect people - which is why I generally avoid this discussion.

 

P

[Bill DiPietra]

I had an entirely female crew on my last short. It was not by design, it was just how things worked out and each and every one of them was professional and easy-going. But I have to say I find that women bring ideas to a project that I would never think of and that's what I love.

 

Very refreshing.