35- and 16-mm film production

[Manu Delpech]

I'm shooting in NOLA this summer and it's a pain that Cineworks closed their lab, hadn't I inquired first whether they were still open (they processed 12 Years a slave, etc), I wouldn't have known. I'm going to have the film developed at Crawford up in Atlanta, they take care of The Walking Dead, so you know they are trustworthy. That + they obviously shoot TWD over there and have for 6 years now. There has been talk that Kodak would bring back a few labs, notably that one in NYC that Ed Lachman (DP on Carol) bought if I'm not mistaken. There's also Alpha Lab's mobile film lab that's a great idea, they used it on Colin Trevorrow's Book Of Henry, but it's back to the UK now.

Edited February 25, 2016 by Manu Delpech

[Ari Michael Leeds]

I think I read your post on this earlier, Manu.

I feel the same way about shipping film around.


I trust you heard about what some genius at TSA did to an episode of "Lost" when they were shipping it back from HI for processing.

Another scary thing is labs letting their chemistry go out of control. Saw an article, forget which film and DP where he was talking about consistency issues. Think this was a 2013 or 2014 issue of ASC mag. The DP said that would probably be the last time he shot film, for that very reason.

Boy what a stupid thing to do and a surefire way to KILL OFF the very job you're in the business of doing.

[Kenny N Suleimanagich]

I can personally vouch for film work in NYC not being "completely dead".

 

My 416 is out on a feaure rental right now (one month), and will be going out on another feature shortly after that (4 week shoot). I'm shooting a music video on 35mm this weekend I did another one on 16mm in December. Ask Jack Rizzo at Metropolis (a member of this forum) and he will tell you, film is definitely being shot in the city if you know where to find it. Maybe not on big banner shows at the moment, but then again much of our craft isn't the big-gun stuff.

 

I am not trying to come off as elitist or contradicting. Nor am I saying you're wrong for not being able to work as a loader in NYC. Just wanted to lend some weight to what's been happening in these parts.

Edited February 25, 2016 by Kenny N Suleimanagich

[Manu Delpech]

@Ari: what happened with that episode of LOST? Never heard about it ^^

 

I'm sure there must be f*** ups sometimes but I don't really think about it, too many people shoot film without any problem for it to really be a thing. I think that in a way, since there are so few labs now, they kinda have to have their stuff together, like Fotokem.

[Ari Michael Leeds]

I have no problem with constructive criticism, which that is.


Yes I am looking more towards big budget feature work.



That being said though, I was in Abel Cine Tech last year and some girl was having a big laugh about how she stumbled into a 35mm loading gig, because she "knew someone." Then she had a big laugh "why would anyone shoot film anymore?" That was the production that cared more about my laptop and label machine than my past work and experience.

Since then, lab has been shuttered, also NFL films gone. Makes film work in NYC a lot harder to find than in LA.

[Ari Michael Leeds]

They sent it through the **(obscenity removed)** X-ray machines. Ruined. Had to be rephotographed. Insured, though.



Problem with high-volume tanks, if you don't get at least 50% turnover in x amount of weeks (forget the specifics, 6, 8?) and you don't dump and replace chemistry (which obviously costs more for no profit, so you don't want to do it) you get basically effective film speed loss, increased stain, which causes a loss of contrast.

I've taken to recommending charts and reading the blacks and base mask densities in my limited indie DP work. Some of the results have been worrisome.

I think the Kodak allowed slop is already +/- 1/2 stop, so going outside that is really unacceptable.



I've read there were DPs that used to pick their own dailie printer lights with the labs in the days of film dailies. DPs like that and the likes of Stanley Kubrick would not be impressed, or continue to do business with a lab like that.

Sorry, I do not have the specific article in front of me. Will see if I can find the specifics this week.

[Manu Delpech]

Nice one ^^

 

Cool tidbits.

[Ari Michael Leeds]

@Kenny, wish I'd run into you four years ago, too :-(


Let's just say the people I work with have their own, "unique" views of filmmaking, mainly that the latest cameras will somehow make up for their lack of talent. Then again, the last 35mm gig I had was similarly problematic. Not sure if it ever got released.



I'll do that latest camera nonsense for a buck (and hope that I am uncredited, or that they never get around to releasing their brand of mush), but pay is also problematic on these DSLR "movies," you see B)

[Mark Dunn]

Bill: Could you please explain how sarcastic responses likening loading to being a WWII tail gunner are "respectful," or snarky replies from Australia are in any way helpful?

 

Didn't your parents teach you any manners?

 

Jesus.

 

 

Robin if you think making two copies of files and doing checksums is as skilled as loading mags. we'll have to agree to disagree. Your WWII tailgunner comment is still incredibly rude and condescending, regardless of how old you are.

 

This isn't the United States Marine Corps, and I'm not some PFC you can Code Red. You read me five by five, Marine?

 

 

 

If you have absolutely nothing save sarcastic comments, and boasting, zero to actually contribute in response to my question, why not take this novel approach: Don't post a reply.

Robin is British. Judging from experience our sense of humour is a good deal less literal than the transatlantic version. Australians are a bit more direct and the Marine thing is lost on us, I'm afraid.

This is an international forum and I've learnt to adjust to the different approaches and temperaments. Even I misjudged it once. Knowing the posters you've objected to from what, and how, they post here, I think you may have done the same.

Edited February 25, 2016 by Mark Dunn

[Ari Michael Leeds]

God knows I like to tell a lot of sarcastic jokes, but I got really, really pissed off when there were six or seven sarcastic comments in a row with zero serious ones.


By Marine, I'm talking about being a military conscript, cannon fodder. Have you seen "Full Metal Jacket?" Yeah, I'm not one of those cookie cutter buzz cut guys. LOL.

Last person who treated me like that on a film set got a wrongful termination/contract agreement abrogation lawsuit to put in his pipe and smoke.



I don't mind bluntness, criticism, but that pecking order thing really sets me off, especially someone who is real friendly when you first talk to them on the phone, then they are an absolute classless, scum of the earth butt on the set, barking orders, treating you worse than a dog or a a cat deserves.



Maybe some people misinterpreted that I was being serious, or that by saying I want film loading gigs that I don't do digital loader or AC gigs; I do.

But film is what I love the most and New York City just doesn't seem to cut it anymore, although Kenny's comment seems to indicate things aren't QUITE as terrible overall as I've experienced personally.


I've worked for an Aussie DP, a Puerto Rican of Chinese descent, some Russians, a Dominican, some Brits, some Americans, of course, and Canadians.

Besides the different spellings, there are some cultural differences, and the internet tends to bring out the worst in people, absent any verbal cues and tonal inflections, but there are also people who are just jerks. I might suck it up on a set and pretend to tolerate these personalities for the duration of a gig, but like I said, I didn't enlist in the United States military. Better to get to know these people in advance, and avoid them at all cost, scum of the Earth, regardless of where they're from.



If I've missed well-intended humor or cultural differences, I apologize. I've certainly encountered English as a second language or American vs. British English differences in culture before.

[Bill DiPietra]

If I've missed well-intended humor or cultural differences, I apologize.

 

You are correct that the internet can cause a plethora of misunderstandings. Robin and I have caught each other in them before, but no harm done. The point is that everyone in this forum means well. We try to help people. If one person doesn't have the answer, another will. And now that you seem to have toned it down...welcome. We welcome your experience & knowledge, as well.

 

As to your initial question...

 

Since I have my own 16mm camera and I shoot almost exclusive on that format (but I hope to move onto others, soon.) I really can't speak to just how much film production there is going on in NYC, so I would listen to Kenny. But when Robin suggested you look for AC jobs on digital shoots, I believe he was simply trying to give you more job opportunities. Obviously, I love film. But I think a lot of people in this thread feel that you are limiting yourself by looking only for film loading jobs - especially if this is your sole source of income. As you know, the majority of the industry - as well as a big part of the independent realm - has gone digital. Yes, I'm sure there are film loading jobs out there, but I doubt there are enough to make a living on.

 

I'm really not sure what the extent of your skill-set is, but my personally opinion is that you need to widen the scope of your job skills in order to make a living where you can pay bills.

 

Best of luck.

[David Mullen ASC]

Many of us have reached the point where we can probably write a parody post in the style of several members here...

[Ari Michael Leeds]

Hope I haven't already reached that point, in so short a time ;-)

[Robin R Probyn]

Bill: Could you please explain how sarcastic responses likening loading to being a WWII tail gunner are "respectful," or snarky replies from Australia are in any way helpful?

 

Didn't your parents teach you any manners?

 

Jesus.

 

 

Robin if you think making two copies of files and doing checksums is as skilled as loading mags. we'll have to agree to disagree. Your WWII tailgunner comment is still incredibly rude and condescending, regardless of how old you are.

 

This isn't the United States Marine Corps, and I'm not some PFC you can Code Red. You read me five by five, Marine?

 

 

 

If you have absolutely nothing save sarcastic comments, and boasting, zero to actually contribute in response to my question, why not take this novel approach: Don't post a reply.

 

 

Ari .. you have misunderstood that rear gunner "joke".. it pertains to the fact.. if you want to exclusively be a film loader.. your career might be short .. because less and less is being shot on film.. there is no disrespect to anyone..

If you are just doing 2 copies probably you are not working on big projects.. where 3 is a minimum and there is alot more than just copying cards.. loading mags is not really any more skilled than managing alot of cards on a big production.. Im not sure what you see as the big difference..

BTW putting film through a couple of X-rays will be fine.. its a accumulative process.. Ive put film through Xray quite a few times.. some airports will actually demand it..and there s a guy pointing a gun at you you put it through the machine.. it would have to go through quite a few to have any effect..

Good luck with your career ..

Edited February 26, 2016 by Robin R Probyn

[Ari Michael Leeds]

There is an incorrect assumption here that I refuse to work with anything but film.


That is not the case. They were shooting video for the Twilight Zone in the '60s, over fifty years ago now, although it did look so bad then there would have been a point in refusing, say, as a DP.

Regardless, I have a problem with not being able to find any film jobs. That's why I asked here.

As to X-rays on film, it is a cumulative process, yes, for CARRY ON. You will very clearly see the effect of X-rays on film that goes through the cargo scanners.

Also, since it is being repeated 24 times a second, subtle differences in fog density that wouldn't be noticeable with stills can show up, even with subtle cumulative scans on checked film.


Kodak does/did have a big, long PDF on this subject.


Here is where my skills as a loader would be invaluable: I always see film through to the lab, or at least to the point of departure. Some TSA goon would NOT be successful in intimidating me into x-raying all the unprocessed film going onto a plane, even if that meant I got arrested.

There's actually a clear list of laws and allowances and expectations with photographic material. I don't know about other countries, as I haven't had the pleasure of shooting abroad yet, but in the US they are well spelled out.

My own experiences with film have been pretty reasonable. And as of four-five years ago, they still had special inspection machines for 35mm still film for those who requested special handling in major US airports. I think at that point they were pretty new, too, post 9/11, maybe 2007 I first noticed them.

[Ari Michael Leeds]

Here it is: http://motion.kodak.com/motion/Support/Technical_Information/Transportation/index.htm

[Robin R Probyn]

Thanks for the info.. yes I wouldn't want to put rushes into the hold of a plane.. we would always hand carry or courier .. there are many places in the world where they have no idea of the rules..in fact thanks to the TSA, lithium batteries are now the hardest thing to get onto a plane..very few airports around the world actually know the WH levels to battery rules.. its really down to the person at security check most of the time.. also many places where getting arrested isnt a good idea..you will lose your rushes for good and maybe a rubber glove where you really dont want it. :).. diminishing returns ..

 

Anyway sorry if I offended you re rear gunner.. its a fairly common phrase in the UK ..well of old farts like myself.. to mean something wont last long.. it is meant to be humor .. and in no way disparaging of the armed forces.. or anyone who has lost their live in the film industry..

 

Good luck to you sir..