Best Cinematography Oscar Snub

[Robin R Probyn]

But Tim.. really ..animators are artists no..? very skilled Im sure.. they are not actors though .. surely there is a difference ..many of the great actors will improvise.. with movements and /or lines ..they can have an idea a few minutes before the take.. talk with the dir just before camera ,s roll.. are there animators who claim to be actors.. ? its a very different process ..

[Max Field]

2 hours ago, Robin R Probyn said:

But Tim.. really ..animators are artists no..? very skilled Im sure.. they are not actors though .. surely there is a difference ..many of the great actors will improvise.. with movements and /or lines ..they can have an idea a few minutes before the take.. talk with the dir just before camera ,s roll.. are there animators who claim to be actors.. ? its a very different process ..

It's like calling a painter a model. I feel like he watched some documentary where an animator was getting really philosophical with some analogy to engage the audience and Tim took it and ran with it far more literally than intended.

[Tim Smyth]

2 hours ago, Robin R Probyn said:

But Tim.. really ..animators are artists no..? very skilled Im sure.. they are not actors though .. surely there is a difference ..many of the great actors will improvise.. with movements and /or lines ..they can have an idea a few minutes before the take.. talk with the dir just before camera ,s roll.. are there animators who claim to be actors.. ? its a very different process ..

So you are saying that actors are not artists?

The characters do not animate themselves, they do not breathe life into themselves, much like an actors performance. The animators also talk to the directors minutes before the take, the take just takes much longer to film. It is no difference in the process.

No animators do not claim to be actors, yet that is what they do, they are the stars up there on the screen, they just hide behind imitation bodies, much like actors hide behind costumes, or makeup.

Is Mickey Mouse a star? Did he get that way because he had no personality, or that folks did not relate to him? Is Felix a star? King Kong? Aren't those the characters we pay to see?  They did not become stars without their animators, who acted, behind them.

[Tim Smyth]

4 minutes ago, Macks Fiiod said:

It's like calling a painter a model. I feel like he watched some documentary where an animator was getting really philosophical with some analogy to engage the audience and Tim took it and ran with it far more literally than intended.

And what have you done Macks?

Edited March 18, 2019 by Tim Smyth

[Max Field]

31 minutes ago, Tim Smyth said:

And what have you done Macks?

Worked heavily and closely on the audio and direction portions of projects with said Cartoon Network animators who just got back to me and said your actor claim is going overboard. You should hire them, here's a reel!

 

[Robin R Probyn]

1 hour ago, Tim Smyth said:

So you are saying that actors are not artists?

The characters do not animate themselves, they do not breathe life into themselves, much like an actors performance. The animators also talk to the directors minutes before the take, the take just takes much longer to film. It is no difference in the process.

No animators do not claim to be actors, yet that is what they do, they are the stars up there on the screen, they just hide behind imitation bodies, much like actors hide behind costumes, or makeup.

Is Mickey Mouse a star? Did he get that way because he had no personality, or that folks did not relate to him? Is Felix a star? King Kong? Aren't those the characters we pay to see?  They did not become stars without their animators, who acted, behind them.

when I say artist I mean it in the more traditional way.. the guy laying bricks can be an artist too.. but thats sort of a dead end as far as the debate goes wouldn't you agree..  how can the process be the same.. live action and animation .. not even close .. they go on location ?.. they work 16 hours in the desert.. they get dope from the caterers :).. the crew is pissed off in the heat/cold.. the light is going and the dir is getting rattled .. have to drop some takes..the ,location has changed since the scout shots.. the airbase starts touch and go practice .. its nothing like the same .. "there is no difference in the process " come on man.. your being very defense .. no one is taking anything away from animators .. they are amazing .. but they are not actors .. that is a very different job ..

 

Edit for spelling 

Edited March 18, 2019 by Robin R Probyn

[Tim Smyth]

7 hours ago, Robin R Probyn said:

when I say artist I mean it in the more traditional way.. the guy laying bricks can be an artist too.. but thats sort of a dead end as far as the debate goes wouldn't you agree..  how can the process be the same.. live action and animation .. not even close .. they go on location ?.. they work 16 hours in the desert.. they get dope from the caterers :).. the crew is pissed off in the heat/cold.. the light is going and the dir is getting rattled .. have to drop some takes..the ,location has changed since the scout shots.. the airbase starts touch and go practice .. its nothing like the same .. "there is no difference in the process " come on man.. your being very defense .. no one is taking anything away from animators .. they are amazing .. but they are not actors .. that is a very different job ..

 

Edit for spelling 

The process of acting has nothing to do with going on location. Someone who acts in a play is not acting because it takes place in a playhouse. The process of bringing to life a character is the same.

I am not saying all animators are great actors, but they are actors.

[Tim Smyth]

8 hours ago, Macks Fiiod said:

Worked heavily and closely on the audio and direction portions of projects with said Cartoon Network animators who just got back to me and said your actor claim is going overboard. You should hire them, here's a reel!

 

Why would I want to hire them? 

What they are doing in this reel is not all math.

Anyway, this is going nowhere, I have stated more than enough examples. Live free.

Edited March 18, 2019 by Tim Smyth

[Tim Smyth]

Hi Robin,

I will say the one difference is animators have to do it in one take, if it is a straight forward type animation, then maybe they get another take, but either way, take one or two is going in the film. Try that with flesh and blood actors.

[Tim Smyth]

Oops, I meant straight ahead animation.

[Robin R Probyn]

9 hours ago, Tim Smyth said:

The process of acting has nothing to do with going on location. Someone who acts in a play is not acting because it takes place in a playhouse. The process of bringing to life a character is the same.

I am not saying all animators are great actors, but they are actors.

Yes that was just one example in a list of the differences .. so is an author/screen writer an actor too.. they do the same as you list as attributes to being an actor.. or why not the DoP.. the lighting of a face can change the mood/feel..or the director then.. I mean it just wouldn't stop.. animators are artists, who by doing their job, make a moving picture.. what about animators who only do backgrounds.. or who animate a broom stick..? they are not actors then.. I don't know why you take it as some insult that animators are not actors .. I can't say Ive met many .. but my brother used to do animation may years ago and I never met a single one who claimed to be an actor .. actors are egomaniacal nutters.. why would an animator want to be an actor.. they just want to be very skilled animators .. darling ? 

[Tim Smyth]

4 hours ago, Robin R Probyn said:

Yes that was just one example in a list of the differences .. so is an author/screen writer an actor too.. they do the same as you list as attributes to being an actor.. or why not the DoP.. the lighting of a face can change the mood/feel..or the director then.. I mean it just wouldn't stop.. animators are artists, who by doing their job, make a moving picture.. what about animators who only do backgrounds.. or who animate a broom stick..? they are not actors then.. I don't know why you take it as some insult that animators are not actors .. I can't say Ive met many .. but my brother used to do animation may years ago and I never met a single one who claimed to be an actor .. actors are egomaniacal nutters.. why would an animator want to be an actor.. they just want to be very skilled animators .. darling ? 

Okay, let's try this one more time.

Is a author/screenwriter an actor too, yes sometimes. Both Sylvester Stallone, Woody Allen among others do both, but when they write, they are writing, they are not performing, when they are in movies they are performing, or acting.

no, the DOP is not an actor, he is not performing a character in front of the camera.  Production is not acting, acting is acting. being on location is not acting either. This is not a put down of the many talented folks it takes to make a motion picture, it just is not part of their job.

The broomstick if alive, is acting, if being held by a character is not acting, but the character holding the broomstick is acting. Backgrounds are not characters, and folks who animate backgrounds I am sure are trying to move up to character animation, and have done character animation before, I mean they just don't pick folks off the streets to animate.

No, animators do not call themselves actors, they call themselves animators, but acting is just part of the job, and accepted, in fact I don't see how one would do the job without acting. They take direction from the directors before doing a shot, many rehearse in the shadows, and they bring to life the characters they are animating, acting as it is through their creations. They do it in the thought process as actors, just they do it in fewer takes, like I said in a post above. If they did not act, then where would Gertie, Mickey, Bugs, Daffy, and many others be? How could Pinoccio move millions of folks?

I just reread a previous post, and basically said the same thing, so hopefully you will read this post and understand that no, not everyone on a film set has the same job, they are not all actors. It is a pretty simple idea, I find it hard to believe folks can't grasp it.

Anyways, since that seems to be the case,  I suggest we agree to disagree, and just drop the matter.

Yours respectfully,

Tim Smyth

 

Edited March 19, 2019 by Tim Smyth

[Robin R Probyn]

 if I might quote the Bard.. "All the worlds a stage.. and all animators are merely players "

[Max Field]

12 minutes ago, Tim Smyth said:

 If they did not act, then where would Gertie, Mickey, Bugs, Daffy, and many others be? How could Pinoccio move millions of folks?

It sounds like you've been involved in very little, if any, of the animation industry.

There aren't 30 different people assembling Tom Cruise's performances. Mickey and Daffy have key frames drawn by someone in America, then filled in for fluidity by someone in France, then colored in by someone in Korea, then sent back to America for sequential editing and final review.

When you actually grind into the work of this process, you're far less concerned with philosophical titles.

[Jon O'Brien]

you beat me to it, by about 60 seconds.

Edit: that is, quoting auld Will

Edited March 19, 2019 by Jon O'Brien

[Tim Smyth]

Let's see what does an animator do? (Pause) There's so many different ways one can approach that question. Primarily I guess and animator's job in a film is he's the actor. I mean, it just really comes down to, a film is a story and the animator, he's one of the characters in it. He crawls inside to the brain and the personality of that character. He is that character on the screen. Not unlike regular actors. The only difference is that an actor in theater, TV or in movies gets to use his own body; his hands and expressions. The animator feels those things but the audience doesn't look at him. They look at his drawing, so it's a matter of how well can you draw how you feel? That's really the gift of an animator, is taking his feelings and putting it through his hand and being able to project himself onto the paper. I guess the challenge that an animator has is mentally get past the point where he's drawing. He's no longer drawing on the paper. It's not an act of drawing. It's more of a crawling into that page and living in that space that is now a three-dimensional world. So then you can start to draw a character walking away in space and you're not thinking so much of perspectives and all those technical things. Instead you're thinking, how does it feel? How do I feel walking down this meadow and back behind that tree back there and then sliding along the trunk of the tree and resting, looking up at the leaves? How do I feel? Hopefully you get into it, otherwise the animation has a very technical and studied look and it doesn't ring true. But an animator that can really live in the character that he's drawing, his stuff sparks with life. People believe him.

Not my words, but by someone who has a little experience in animation, Glen Keane. I suppose he really doesn't know what he's talking about though.

Edited March 19, 2019 by Tim Smyth

[George Ebersole]

Kurosawa's RAN.

 

EDIT;

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0089881/awards?ref_=tt_ql_op_1

[George Ebersole]

Oh dear, did I shut down the conversation on this thread?

[Robin R Probyn]

An also RAN  ?