Have a chance at an Ultra 16 CP-16R package on eBay. Should I do it?

[Aapo Lettinen]

If the only issue with the OP's camera seems to be the soundproofing and it works otherwise OK and the electronics are ok, then it would probably make sense to ask for apartial refund to keep the camera and send it to visual products for an overhaul and repairs. It would need the overhaul anyway if wanting to shoot feature films with it and they can resolve the soundproofing issue at the same time.  

[Matthew W. Phillips]

7 hours ago, aapo lettinen said:

If the only issue with the OP's camera seems to be the soundproofing and it works otherwise OK and the electronics are ok, then it would probably make sense to ask for apartial refund to keep the camera and send it to visual products for an overhaul and repairs. It would need the overhaul anyway if wanting to shoot feature films with it and they can resolve the soundproofing issue at the same time.  

Thanks for the heads up but I will eat the cost of that purchase and probably turn around the camera for a loss when I get the charger. I am done with the Cinema Products platform. It is a mess and there just isnt enough in the way of lens selection. I don't want to invest in a PL mount conversion for this one because I would also want S16 conversion on a PL mount camera and mine 1) was already converted to U16 and 2) Has the bowtie shutter which I heard is not eligible for S16.

I'm going to shoot my short on a BMPCC 4K sadly but I will save my pennies long term to purchase a proper S16 camera package if the opportunity presents itself (Arri SR3, for instance)

[Aapo Lettinen]

if S16 is needed then the bowtie CP16R is not a good camera choice. But the Cinema Products platform has still has lots of advantages compared to the other alternatives in the approx. same price point:

- very easy to install a basic video tap to even if you have to do it by yourself. This is because the viewfinder prism already works as a beamsplitter so that additional expensive custom optics don't need to be made

- relatively easy to service and maintain. Most other cameras are a mess if you try to repair or replace something but most of the stuff on CP16R is easily accessible 

- easy to customise compared to most other cameras. I guess it is because Cinema Products offered so many customisation options for the cameras by default and thus they had to make it easy to add on features by customers needs and there is some extra room inside the camera for these add ons 

- one can get cheap spare bodies for scavenging mechanical parts and some parts can be even replaced with non original stuff if needed. Arris and especially Aatons are crazy expensive for both the spare bodies and parts but one can easily get one or two spare bodies for parts if using a CP16

- it is possible to do some types of lens mount conversions by yourself if having even basic machining skills and some time to figure it out. On most cameras this is much more difficult but the short ffd of the cp16 mount allows easier modifications

- when I get my electronics update finished and available for order, the camera has better crystal framerate options and counters etc. capabilities than most sub 10K cameras available for purchase at the moment

[Matthew W. Phillips]

8 minutes ago, aapo lettinen said:

if S16 is needed then the bowtie CP16R is not a good camera choice. But the Cinema Products platform has still has lots of advantages compared to the other alternatives in the approx. same price point:

- very easy to install a basic video tap to even if you have to do it by yourself. This is because the viewfinder prism already works as a beamsplitter so that additional expensive custom optics don't need to be made

- relatively easy to service and maintain. Most other cameras are a mess if you try to repair or replace something but most of the stuff on CP16R is easily accessible 

- easy to customise compared to most other cameras. I guess it is because Cinema Products offered so many customisation options for the cameras by default and thus they had to make it easy to add on features by customers needs and there is some extra room inside the camera for these add ons 

- one can get cheap spare bodies for scavenging mechanical parts and some parts can be even replaced with non original stuff if needed. Arris and especially Aatons are crazy expensive for both the spare bodies and parts but one can easily get one or two spare bodies for parts if using a CP16

- it is possible to do some types of lens mount conversions by yourself if having even basic machining skills and some time to figure it out. On most cameras this is much more difficult but the short ffd of the cp16 mount allows easier modifications

- when I get my electronics update finished and available for order, the camera has better crystal framerate options and counters etc. capabilities than most sub 10K cameras available for purchase at the moment

Maybe your experience differs but having shot film through 3 of these cameras, I have never had rock steady footage. I can always see some wobble or gate weave in all of them. Granted, some might be slight but not completely stable. This is another issue I have had with the camera. I haven't even seen footage online from one of these cameras where the footage was completely stable.

[Aapo Lettinen]

would the Eclairs work if you don't want to continue with the CP line cameras?

[Matthew W. Phillips]

1 hour ago, aapo lettinen said:

would the Eclairs work if you don't want to continue with the CP line cameras?

Not sure...never tried one.

[Aapo Lettinen]

On 12/31/2021 at 1:05 AM, Matthew W. Phillips said:

Not sure...never tried one.

the question is, what frame rates do you actually need for filming and do you need a pin reg camera or will a normal camera do as long as it is stable enough image? 

Most likely it will be the Arri SR1 or 2 or the Eclair ACL. Most likely the NPR would be too awkward to use due to the motor arrangement of it and the Aatons are too expensive and too difficult to get. Arri 16BL is out of the question (too awkward, noisy and old+limited design to be usable as a replacement for CP16R and very difficult to convert to S16)

In any case the camera needs to be serviced before use. I am thinking of the possibility of getting a N16 arri sr for cheap and then getting it converted to S16 but keeping the B mount to save on conversion costs and lenses. Much better if it is possible to find a camera which is already converted and has a PL mount but would be expensive either way. The Arris are more common than Aatons so the SR might do if it is not too expensive to get it in full working condition.

How much the camera can actually cost in total without lenses? 

 

[Heikki Repo]

On 12/30/2021 at 11:36 PM, Matthew W. Phillips said:

I haven't even seen footage online from one of these cameras where the footage was completely stable.

How stable is "completely stable" for you? Just asking, as I have never seen "digital stable" footage out of any film footage online, be it SR3 or some other camera. If that's your standard, no film camera is going to give you what you want. Most classic films shot on 35mm film have that small movement too. Then again, usually everyone is watching the movie and not paying attention to the frame line, as long as it is stable enough. Start paying attention to stability only and soon you'll notice all shaky camera moves as well, bumps on the dolly tracks etc. ?

I have been pasting this short piece of mine here way too often, but do you think the footage here is "completely stable"? That's shot on an Eclair ACL that was serviced just before the production.

 

[Aapo Lettinen]

1 hour ago, Heikki Repo said:

How stable is "completely stable" for you? Just asking, as I have never seen "digital stable" footage out of any film footage online, be it SR3 or some other camera. If that's your standard, no film camera is going to give you what you want.

if the OP is really all about image stability as the main priority, one can always use digital plugins to remove most of the instability and gate weave from problematic film shots. I am doing this occasionally with Krasnogorsk footage and similar stuff where stability is a serious issue. The same plugins than used for rolling shutter correction seem to work pretty well on gate weave too (for example the adobe warp stabiliser) .

relatively stable footage from the camera + post stabilization = pretty rock solid end result most of the time. At least it is cheaper than spending 10k for a camera just to get a mechanically stable result when one could get pretty stable result with a sub 1k camera using post stabilization

[Matthew W. Phillips]

5 hours ago, Heikki Repo said:

How stable is "completely stable" for you? Just asking, as I have never seen "digital stable" footage out of any film footage online, be it SR3 or some other camera. If that's your standard, no film camera is going to give you what you want. Most classic films shot on 35mm film have that small movement too. Then again, usually everyone is watching the movie and not paying attention to the frame line, as long as it is stable enough. Start paying attention to stability only and soon you'll notice all shaky camera moves as well, bumps on the dolly tracks etc. ?

I have been pasting this short piece of mine here way too often, but do you think the footage here is "completely stable"? That's shot on an Eclair ACL that was serviced just before the production.

 

Maybe I misspoke. I don't need microscopically stable images. I just need something much better than I have gotten from CP16. I imagine what worked for Hollywood for as long as it has is good for me. And your footage looks fine as far as I can tell.

But I have not gotten anywhere close with the CP16 which is (one reason) why I am done with the platform. Too many issues to deal with and too many compromises when many other alternatives (digital or film) exist if I save my coins.

[Richard Bruce Creswick]

G’day, I am posting from Australia. I am trying to get an idea of the cost/value of a CP16 camera dating from the early ‘70’s. I am intending to purchase one as a display unit. It doesn’t run and all the rubbers are shot but it has some interesting provenance. The seller has no idea what it might be worth. I noted an earlier post where a guy said he got one for $1300 (US or Canadian$ ?) presumably in working order. Any ideas out there? Thanks in anticipation.

[Gareth Blackstock]

Hello,

I am based in Ballarat, Victoria.  I bought a CP 16R around 3 years ago for $350 that needed a good service and it's rubbers replaced.  The camera also had a cool history, used by a photojournalist in the 80's to cover the middle east and he saw a fair bit of action.  Sadly I think in this end of the world such cameras go very cheaply... there is not as much interest as there is in the northern hemisphere.

If it is for display, at least you can assure the owner it will not be discarded but kept safe.  If the lens is a notable one, perhaps it's value may be higher, but not many people shoot with CP's anymore and the lens mount is unique.  Limiting potential buyers.

What provenance by the way?

Gareth  

[Aapo Lettinen]

12 minutes ago, Gareth Blackstock said:

not many people shoot with CP's anymore and the lens mount is unique.  Limiting potential buyers.

The cameras are very useful if having a arri bayonet or arri std adapter. Then most normal zoom lenses can be used. This is the way I am using it as well because it was impossible to find native cp16r mount lens for cheap but arri mount zooms are easy to get

[Gareth Blackstock]

Oops I stand corrected... thanks Aapo.  So, Richard, as with all things.... research ?

cheers, Gareth

[Jon O'Brien]

If it doesn't work and needs a lot of attention I wouldn't pay more than maybe a few hundred dollars at best (maybe $400?) but then I'm not a camera repairer type. As a display item only I'd say it's not worth much. I guess it depends on general condition, though.

[Aapo Lettinen]

On 4/13/2023 at 10:07 AM, Richard Bruce Creswick said:

G’day, I am posting from Australia. I am trying to get an idea of the cost/value of a CP16 camera dating from the early ‘70’s. I am intending to purchase one as a display unit. It doesn’t run and all the rubbers are shot but it has some interesting provenance. The seller has no idea what it might be worth. I noted an earlier post where a guy said he got one for $1300 (US or Canadian$ ?) presumably in working order. Any ideas out there? Thanks in anticipation.

The value may be somewhere between 300usd and 600usd depending on the actual condition of the camera. If it is the CP16 (non-reflex) model then likely somewhere around 400usd or so might be possible. If it has a fitting lens then might be more valuable.

there is lots which can be problematic with these cameras if wanting to repair and use them and may be lots of work to restore it in working condition. as a display item they would work in any case but if wanting to actually use it one would need to check at least these things and more:

- are the soundproofing materials in usable condition, especially the one on the camera door?

- do the electronics work at all? if not, does at least the motor itself work so that one could use replacement electronics with it (like my 1-speed crystal update kit) ?

- the condition of the belt drives

- are the rubber vibration isolation pads on the motor and the central movement assembly in usable condition or do they need to be changed?

- the condition of the optical parts. this can be anything from almost mint to super moldy, corroded and unusable so always necessary to check.

- the condition of the rollers. oil is easy to add but are they worn out in any way

- is the aperture plate and movement in usable condition? it is possible for the gate/aperture plate to be so worn out (the "bearing balls" too worn to hold perfs etc) that the camera does not work correctly anymore... my spare parts body has this issue and can't be restored

- are the felt pads inside the flywheel in good condition? these will eventually wear out to dust in use and if worn out enough the camera makes clicking sounds when running. not the easiest thing in the world to change especially if using the original electronics with the camera

- are the gears and bearings in good condition

- footage counter, does it work and seems intact? sometimes the axle holder/ "bearing" on the footage counter axle may shatter because the gear protrudes a little bit when the camera side is opened and it may get hit accidentally, possibly shattering the plastic holding the axle in place

- if the electronics happened to work, then do the back panel controls work correctly too

- new belts are possible to get if needed. Checking the friction pads on the magazine drive axle is a good idea, these can be changed too if needed. possibly might be enough to feel if the friction pads work or not by turning the axle by hand

- does the magazine fit correctly and locks in place? there is a silly rubber pad thing inside the upper holder which keeps the mag in place, this can sometimes come off or even get lost because it is just glued in place. the magazine lock itself can jam too and need work

- the condition of the light seals

- does the magazine work correctly and are the rollers etc. still usable in it

- how much dirt and detoriated soundproofing materials there is inside the camera to clean out

Edited April 19, 2023 by aapo lettinen