Jump to content

Sony, BM Design, or Canon?


Recommended Posts

  • Premium Member
On 7/10/2022 at 9:24 PM, Adrian Sierkowski said:

As far as I know no black magic has any stabilizer 

Correct, the bodies don't. BMD in Resolve 18 uses a built in gyroscope inside the 6k Pro, which records tracking data that can be automatically applied to any 6k Pro clip to stabilize in post. So it's actually a super good system that's reliable and doesn't require any tracking data from the system, making it seamless as you payback in your timeline. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Premium Member
23 hours ago, Dan Finlayson said:

This is a straw man.  The sensor isn't 10mb *because* it has IBIS.  There's a whole host of other factors.

The point was sacrifice. It's a huge sacrifice to have IBIS. Just look at Panasonic dumping it from their cameras and Canon doing the same thing with the R5. Where is Red, Arri and BMD's "internal" IBIS? Doesn't exist.. and for a good reason. Not cost. 

23 hours ago, Dan Finlayson said:

The FX3 also has a gyro that can be utilized by Catalyst to stabilize in post.  Not as convenient as doing it right in Resolve but it has both options.

Right, so completely useless. 

The 6k pro system is real-time, in your timeline as your playing back. No delay, no rendering, no converting clips and putting them into your editorial system. 

So no, Sony fails... like always, to deliver a "compatible" solution. 

23 hours ago, Dan Finlayson said:

IBIS is a wonderful tool for the right job, results in minimal distortion on focal lengths in the normal-telephoto range, and shouldn't be regarded as an automatic anchor around the neck of sensor technology

The cameras that have IBIS have to have distortion correction to work. So they are actually compensating for the distortion the IBIS creates, which is good and bad. 

Also... because IBIS imagers can't have a big heatsink which is required for high resolution imagers with fast refresh rates (required for video) it's very limited. 

So yea, a 10MP imager is about the best they can do and YES it's because of IBIS 100%. 

Again, if it worked, Arri would have one. Red would have one. BMD would have one. Canon C series would have one. Panasonic Varicam would have one, etc. 

Heck, everyone is moving to optical (lens) and digital stabilization for this very reason. Even the go pro's, Mavic drones, iPhones, no longer use IBIS. There is a reason! 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

I'm renting the Sony FS7 and an A73 for a concert video I'm doing for a music school. This will give me a chance to check out Sony cameras. One thing that strikes me though is that a lot of videographers seem to use just an LCD screen and not an EVF. I'm surprised to discover that a lot of digital filmers don't use a viewfinder these days. For a start, my eyes don't focus at close enough range any more for an LCD screen. If I went with just an LCD screen I'd need to get a special glasses prescription for filming. And I just can't understand though how on earth you are supposed to be able to rely on an LCD screen in bright sunlight, outdoors. Australia tends to have very bright outdoors light.

Has anyone used the Fx6 or the C300 mark iii with an EVF/loupe? How was the experience?

Edited by Jon O'Brien
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's worth making the point that IBIS is absolutely useful for photography. Especially when it's used in conjunction with OIS. For video, well... actually not as much. How does the camera know that you're going to start panning before you start panning? Maybe some manual override buttons on the handgrip might be useful.

Just as a reference, this is a perfect example of how useful it is for still images (and maybe for static video shots, too):

(10:13)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member
1 minute ago, Karim D. Ghantous said:

It's worth making the point that IBIS is absolutely useful for photography.

Optical stabilization is FAR more useful, but also very expensive because your lenses need to be specialized. 

But I agree, stabilization for stills is far more useful.

Since this is a cinematography group, discussing "video cameras", I'm focused specifically on that technology. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member
On 7/12/2022 at 9:13 PM, Tyler Purcell said:

Again, if it worked, Arri would have one. Red would have one. BMD would have one. Canon C series would have one. Panasonic Varicam would have one, etc.

Your comment was filled with a lot of wild speculation but this one takes the cake.  Those products are for COMPLETELY different use cases, with a host of different priorities.  The Sony Venice doesn't have IBIS as well but you forgot to mention that.

On 7/12/2022 at 9:13 PM, Tyler Purcell said:

The cameras that have IBIS have to have distortion correction to work. So they are actually compensating for the distortion the IBIS creates, which is good and bad.

It's interesting how adverse you are to IBIS distortion.  But CMOS rolling shutter is just fine?

On 7/12/2022 at 9:13 PM, Tyler Purcell said:

Also... because IBIS imagers can't have a big heatsink which is required for high resolution imagers with fast refresh rates (required for video) it's very limited.

Heat dissipation per resolution isn't directly correlated, especially between sensor technologies.  Just like DR isn't directly correlated with resolution across sensor technologies.  The FX3 has a quad bayer sensor for example - it's not all about pixel count.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member
On 7/13/2022 at 12:13 AM, Jon O'Brien said:

I'm surprised to discover that a lot of digital filmers don't use a viewfinder these days.

This is a frustration of mine as well.  I prefer an EVF - the problem I've encountered is everything bar Arri's EVFs and the Sony Venice EVF is that there is just too much latency, especially with aftermarket solutions.  Even the Red EVFs aren't all that great.

I'm not a huge fan of the sony loupe/screen solution - they're not particularly sharp.  But what I can say about the FX6 is I really like the peaking compared to other cameras.  So it might work well for your needs.  I don't remember the FS7 being good at peaking.  And I don't think canon has a similar solution available, just that insanely placed rear EVF on the 300s

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member
9 hours ago, Dan Finlayson said:

Your comment was filled with a lot of wild speculation but this one takes the cake.  Those products are for COMPLETELY different use cases, with a host of different priorities.  The Sony Venice doesn't have IBIS as well but you forgot to mention that.

The FX9 (the camera I suggested) is far more in-line with the OP's use case, then ANY camera with IBIS. 

I left out the Venice because it is clearly way over the OP's budget. 

9 hours ago, Dan Finlayson said:

It's interesting how adverse you are to IBIS distortion.  But CMOS rolling shutter is just fine?

 I mean, you can see IBIS distortion very easily,, it's plain as day. A simple tracking shot, an operator walking next to a subject, no high speed motion and you can see it. Rolling Shutter effect requires extreme high speed scenarios, totally different issue. Plus most of the modern cameras like the one I suggest here (the FX9) has no noticeable rolling shutter.  

9 hours ago, Dan Finlayson said:

Heat dissipation per resolution isn't directly correlated, especially between sensor technologies.  Just like DR isn't directly correlated with resolution across sensor technologies.  The FX3 has a quad bayer sensor for example - it's not all about pixel count.

Heat dissipation per resolution is 100% directly correlated. More pixels = more heat due to a more compact profile. It's just super basic engineering. This is why Sony does not have an IBIS camera using the Venice imager. It's 100% impossible. They need a huge heatsink to dissipate all that heat. You can get away with a lot on a stills camera because the imager can be re-freshed at MUCH slower speeds for preview. However, on a video camera, the imager needs to be refreshed at much higher speeds, causing way more heat. This is why Sony's flagship 5 axis IBIS camera the R7 which is 60MP, can still only shoot UHD video. Because the entire system would overheat and stop working. Canon has the same issue with the 45MP,  it'll shoot 8k stills all day long, but the moment you start capturing 8k video, it overheats immediately. The R5C solves this by having a big heatsink and NO IBIS and guess what? No overheating issues! 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member
10 hours ago, Tyler Purcell said:

It's just super basic engineering. This is why Sony does not have an IBIS camera using the Venice imager. It's 100% impossible.

You're killing me hahahah

10 hours ago, Tyler Purcell said:

You can get away with a lot on a stills camera because the imager can be re-freshed at MUCH slower speeds for preview.

As Karim mentioned, the A1 is going to blow your mind.

I own an A7RIV.  It's slow refresh rate is not due to IBIS, it's a limitation of the circuitry they used on that die process.  The A1 is stacked so it can refresh much faster.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member
14 hours ago, Karim D. Ghantous said:

Sony's A1, which shoots 8K video (not RAW though), has IBIS. 

It does not shoot full imager 8k video, check again. 

The camera still overheats in 4k and 8k mode when using outdoors anywhere but the arctic. Every reviewer is struggling to get 30 minutes straight in 4k, many reported 15 min max in 8k .h265 Long GOP. In any "iframe" mode, they were getting 12 minutes in "faux" 8k. 

The R5C with no IBIS will fill a CF Express card with real 8k raw video without overheating. 

The A1 uses proprietary cards to get iFrame codecs and the biggest card is 160GB! Are you kidding me? We made our own CF Express B cards for the R5, we made 3x512gb for $350 bux. 

14 hours ago, Dan Finlayson said:

I own an A7RIV.  It's slow refresh rate is not due to IBIS, it's a limitation of the circuitry they used on that die process.  The A1 is stacked so it can refresh much faster.

The A1 has a 16.6MS refresh rate

The Canon R5 has 15.5 MS

The Canon R5C is 11 MS

The Venice 2 8k camera is 3MS rolling shutter 

So yes... you can see right away, the limitation is directly related to processing power which is reduced by the lack of being able to cool. The reason why the A7RIV has good 7ms refresh rate is because... wait for it... IT ONLY SHOOTS 3840 x 2160!!!

Hate to break it to ya, but lower resolution = higher refresh rate. 

But anyway, I've proven my point pretty clearly. 

IBIS cameras always struggle with heat compared to the same resolution imager in a non-IBIS configuration. That's all I was saying and I've very much proven it above. 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member
7 hours ago, Tyler Purcell said:

But anyway, I've proven my point pretty clearly.

No matter how many times you say it, the relationship between resolution and refresh doesn't hold between sensor fab processes.  The sensor tech is much more important than how big the heat sink is.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member
21 minutes ago, Dan Finlayson said:

No matter how many times you say it, the relationship between resolution and refresh doesn't hold between sensor fab processes.  The sensor tech is much more important than how big the heat sink is.

There is a 100% direct correlation between what functions the camera is capable of doing and having adequate cooling. 

As IBIS prevents the ability of the camera to cool properly. There are ALWAYS compromises in ANY IBIS camera. 

I have taken the time to prove that above. 

Besides the obvious point, nobody is shooting ENG style work on a stills camera that just happens to shoot video and the only cameras with IBIS are those small bodies. A real ENG camera is shoulder mounted and does not have and does not need IBIS. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Tyler Purcell said:

The camera still overheats in 4k and 8k mode when using outdoors anywhere but the arctic. Every reviewer is struggling to get 30 minutes straight in 4k,

Not all!

"Another major advantage the Alpha 1 has over the EOS R5 is unlimited recording times, way beyond half an hour... here's my Alpha 1 happily recording a single 8K clip lasting over an hour and 20 minutes."

 

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member
1 hour ago, Karim D. Ghantous said:

"Another major advantage the Alpha 1 has over the EOS R5 is unlimited recording times, way beyond half an hour... here's my Alpha 1 happily recording a single 8K clip lasting over an hour and 20 minutes."

He said "indoors in the evening". So yea, on a film set it works great. Nobody uses them on a film set. Everyone is going to use them outdoors and probably in broad daylight. They overheat in that situation in anywhere but the arctic, which kinda was a joke, but not. There are countless videos of actual testers, putting their cameras through the paces outdoors not in some sterile situation and having them fail. 

The R5 is a joke for 8k recording anyway, it seemed to be a feature tagged on and does not work. 

The R5C fixes all of the issues. It'll record Raw and compressed RAW internally in 8k for A LOT less money then the A1 AND! it's actually 8k and not some degraded version for consumers. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member
19 minutes ago, Jon O'Brien said:

I've been considering the Ursa Mini Pro G2 as well. Has anyone used one of these, especially with the EVF?

No, just stay away from BMD right now. Max ISO is around 800 on that camera before it falls apart. The EVF is ok. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

FWIW, here's my latest thoughts on these cameras. 

I'm no longer so interested in IBIS or autofocus. Besides great images and audio, my main digital go-to cam must have : 1) An EVF, and 2) be either shoulder mount, or held in front of the body C300 style with in-lens stabilization (not IBIS). Or stabilization in post.

Pretty close to a traditional film style of shooting in other words.

I need to get into digital to get jobs around the place but frankly for my personal stuff I look forward to going back to film.

Edited by Jon O'Brien
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...