Arriflex BL 16mm camera on craigslist?

[Patrick Neary]

Oh what the heck, I'll throw my 2-cents in as a former (very happy) BL owner. Not taking sides, just one more perspective...

 

My Bl paid for itself almost immediately, was as quiet as any SR-1, and provided flawless greenscreen work. If I had known about Bruce's conversion, I probably would have kept it. And while I've shot many miles more film through SRs than the BL, I never (and I mean NEVER) had a hair or dust show up in the gate of the BL, where that seems to be a regular cost of doing business with any SR. Regarding the much-maligned lens blimp, if you can live with your favorite zoom stuck there, the blimp makes for a very easy grab for pulling focus and iris, and it's MUCH easier with the prime blimp than trying to fiddle with those tiny schneiders/cookes/etc. I had a nice padded arri shoulder brace as well that made hand-holding, even handsfree(!) relatively comfortable.

 

The SR is a great camera system, and certainly a lot more versatile, as Tim has pointed out, but the BL (in good condition, of course) is still a fantastic camera.

 

And let's face it, how many of your first projects are going anywhere other than standard-def NTSC/PAL? People get too hung up on the ability to go DI to 35mm or HD when there probably isn't a snowball's chance in hell of that ever happening.

[Patrick Neary]

whoops, I should have added- *do get a mag barney* :)

[Tim Carroll]

Speaking of inexpensive, pin registered, quiet, Super 16 cameras, there is an Eclair NPR that has a Les Bosher Super 16 conversion and PL mount, with crystal sync motor, and battery packs, and alot of other accessories, on eBay right now, and it is currently at $1225. Like I said earlier, the bottom has fallen out of the motion picture camera market. By the way, Les Bosher does fantastic work.

 

Super 16 NPR package on eBay

 

-Tim

[Hans Engstrom]

Aaton LTR on Ebay Here is a Aaton LTR from the same seller that I bought mine from. He is trustworthy and if you´re lucky it will sell for around 3000 usd as mine did. Usual disclamer applies (I only bought from him and don´t make any money on his sales) It´s a far better camera than the 16BL and don´t worry about pin-registration on 16mm cameras. The registration on my Aaton is just as good as it was on my 16BL and take it from someone who owned them both, the Aaton is lightyears ahead of the 16BL.

 

I work professionally as a 1st AC and I really can´t recommend the 16BL. Because of the blimp you will get into trouble if you for example have to pull focus wireless in a dialogue scene. It´s built like a tank a.s.o. but for the whole time I owned it I wouldn´t have used it on anything else than a shortfilm/musicvideo without budget.

[Thanasis Diamantopoulos]

Bruce,

 

If you buy the camera for $2000, ship the camera round trip to Australia at quite a cost, and spend $2600 for the Super 16 conversion, you have already spent more than the $4679 that my Arriflex 16SR sold for. And what Super 16 lens are you going to find that will fit inside that lens blimp? Having a Super 16 Arriflex 16BL with no Super 16 lens is not doing you much good. Not to mention, where is Rebecca going to find a service techinician in the United States who will service one of your converted 16BL cameras, being as few techs will service the standard 16BL anymore.

 

$2000 is a substantial investment for a student. Why encourage Rebecca to invest in something that will not serve her longer term interests.

 

And for my friend Scott; Michael Chin, a very well respected documentary cinematographer, sold his Aaton LTR Super 16 package for $4800 last year. And I have shot a few loads of film with his camera, and the images are rock steady. You don't need pin registration for rock steady images. And the whisper quiet Aaton LTR makes the Arriflex 16BL sound like a meat grinder.

 

I have to agree with mister CARROLL even if i am a bl owner. 5000 usd even more with transport and taxis is alot of money for sending for convertion a camera to the other side o earth. Specialy an old bl camera. Also you can't get decent sound in a small room witch probably a student will use bl is noise a lot even wthi soft blimbs and blankets :D . I AM NOT AGAINST A STUDENT TO GET AND USE A BL 16 CAMERA but i am against comparing bl( and convertions) with ltr and sr cameras in the years of hight definition, when the prises are getting lower and lower.

 

PS Angenieux are soft lenses for me and you have to get a zeiss 10 100 . And Becky don't be so absolute that you don't need prime lenses, film cinematography means getting the full advandages of film resolution.

 

THANASIS DIAMANTOPOYLOS

CINEMATOGRAPHER

ATHENS GREECE.

[Scott Cohen]

Hello,

 

I am a student and want to own my own camera that can do sync sound work...

 

I found this on Craigs

http://losangeles.craigslist.org/wst/ele/272888942.html

 

In the description it claims the only 16mm cameras that have the pin-registration and are good for sync sound in 16mm are the Arri BL, Arri SR and the Eclair NPR.

 

Is that true?

 

I am looking for a affordable camera that will allow me to shoot dialogue and still have a very steady picture that I could blow up to 35mm later on.

 

I heard Kevin Smith shot Clerks with an Arriflex BL.

 

Is that true?

 

Thank you everybody for you time and this great online resource.

 

Rebecca

 

People are TOTALLY missing the point.

 

Robert Rodriguez shot El Mariachi on a Arriflex S (Or M depending on the publicity shots you look at) with a stock 12mm-120mm Angenieux zoom.

 

It came out great. I would have been even better if he had a BL, then he wouldn't have had to stick it to Columbia for several hundred thousand dollars for sound "fixing".

 

Telling her to buy an Arri SR, Aaton or other expensive camera is crazy.

 

At the seller's current price of $1675 she can't touch another pin-reg quiet camera.

 

She could buy it and then shoot her film and re-sell it. Or if she feels like she wants to shoot Super 16 later on she could have Bruce do the conversion and still be under $5K.

 

And that Arri SR for $5K WAS NOT a Super 16mm camera. How much for an S16 Arri SR? Huh?

 

Rebecca, smile your biggest smile, SLOWLY count 15 hundred dollar bills into his hand and I bet he might go for it.

 

Let us know how it all turns out.

 

SC

[Tim Carroll]

If Rebecca wants to buy that Arriflex 16BL, then she should buy it, it's her money.

 

The things I would check would be the "2. Sync camera motor." as the pictures do not show the back of the camera, and from the side, it does not look like it has any of the crystal sync motors I have seen on a BL. Many folks refer to the 24 fps constant speed ARRI motor (which many of the camera came with) as a "sync" motor when in reality it is not. It runs at a fairly constant speed, but will not be reliable for syncing dialog, especially on long takes.

 

I would ask for the service records on the camera, when was it serviced last and by whom. Motion picture cameras are complex mechanisms that must be set and kept to exact tolerances to obtain the best picture quality. Also, those old Arriflex cameras need to be lubricated regularly, find out when it was lubed last. Rebecca mentioned that she has seen images shot with this camera, I would find out how long ago he shot them.

 

I would also find out what power source he used with the camera. And he does not list a power cord, I would see if he could include that as well.

 

For the quietest operation, you will need the magazine barney, so start searching for one of those, they show up from time to time on eBay. And I would strongly recommend a matte box or at least some kind of lens hood.

 

Best of luck with your purchase.

-Tim

[Lav Bodnaruk]

Hi all

 

People have short memories so I thought that I should confirm that we convert the wonderful BL16 to super 16 regularly.

 

The BLis a very robust camera.

 

 

Bruce, I didnt forget, I mentioned you in my post (page 1) :)

 

Seems to me you are all taking it out on a poor old BL way too much.

 

We all seem to know what the 16BL is capable of, the pros and cons, and comparing it to SR is crazy, so why do it... For that money if she buys the BL, shoots her project successfully, she probably would have saved on what else would have gone on rentals ... then Rebecca can put it on eBay and the full circle is complete.

 

After all Rebecca seems to want the camera for a quick job with ZOOM only which suggests this camera may not stay around with her too long... I dont think she will loose any money on re-selling within 1 year of purchase (if she can prove she got good shots with it) she can even make a buck on a next guy that doesnt remember to address the purchase on this forum.

 

By the way, I would not part with my BL (and all these fantastic accessories that took years to collect) for less then $4000 AUD - and that being border line after all negotiations... with PayPal and eBay fees I would list my camera at $5K AUD and if you live in Oz it might be a good deal to get it and save on postage from States or Europe.

 

PS. The LTR that is on eBay at the moment comes from a good seller. I did business with him - never had any probs.

[Tim Carroll]

By the way, I would not part with my BL (and all these fantastic accessories that took years to collect) for less then $4000 AUD

 

Lav,

 

What motor or motors do you have with your 16BL? Did you get a crystal sync motor for it, and if so, which one? Just curious. I know the Tobin one is very nice, just wondering about the others.

 

Thanks,

-Tim

[Martin Yernazian]

Rebecca

 

Hi How are you?

I guess this rude filmmakers forget about beign polite about some others people's money

 

I will suggest you the following

Consider 2 things

 

1) is it worth it to risk to buy a great but cheap 16mm camera?

remember that today the most welcoming ratio is 16:9, and a camera like this you can't do true super 16

( tim Carroll did crop 16 to 16:9 and it looked pretty cool)

And maybe you could save for a different cam ( I am using the word Different people ok, not better)

Like the Eclairs or the Aaton or a Kinor.... let's put it this way there are alot of good cameras out there that you can grow with and have for years.

 

2) Buy the BL and make a great proyect on the 16mm format like Pi, Clerks, The followings etc.....

 

 

Good luck

[Lav Bodnaruk]

Lav,

 

What motor or motors do you have with your 16BL? Did you get a crystal sync motor for it, and if so, which one? Just curious. I know the Tobin one is very nice, just wondering about the others.

 

Thanks,

-Tim

 

 

Hey Tim,

 

I have a BLE motor, which is not quite the same as the BLEQ nor BL.

 

I use an external SYNC unit to keep my 25fps at constant crystal speed. At the moment I use German made Jensen 505 and it is brilliant. I have TWO of them. I also own a Minilock made in England, which is slightly different but still does the trick.

 

I have put my camera through extensive research with one of the Panavision techs, who spent weeks figuring out this whole 'crystal' lock on BL. We concluded that the BLE motor varies in speed due to heat it produces. Not a brainer I know, but still, we produced evidence to back this up.

 

When shooting with the BLE motor without a crystal sync 3rd party unit, you can get up to 45 seconds of film to go through your magazine without missing a single frame. Lets face it, that is pretty good... you can do takes that are 2min long and will only loose 3 frames... which is not enough to loose sync. Plus its an easy shift of wave forms in the edit if it was more then 3fps but never mind that now...

 

You can adjust your BLE motor to be this precise by following few procedures (none of which I recommend for anyone here to do without proper tools).

 

With the 3rd party unit added on, to keep it locked, you do not have to worry about this, and I am able to get through the entire 400foot of film without loosing 1 frame - therefore perfect sync.

 

Tobin is very nice and a little more dear then Jensen or Minilock. It is also installed in the camera which makes it rather easier to use.

 

Jensen 505 gives me 2fps - 48fps. Wish I could get up to 50fps but cannot.

 

But here is the thing. I actually ENJOY having an add-on sync unit, for often I found I don't need to use it (if there is no speaking) and I need to reduce the weight of the camera. For those that claim this camera is not easy for hand held work I beg to differ, as I just shot a short (completely hand held) on Sr2 and found it more annoying that working with my BL. I was using focus myself as there was a lot of dipping in and out so the BL would have been OK for there was no need for focus puller to sit next to me.

 

My BL has a swan neck viewfinder which makes the hand held easy. I use it with primes and if need it to be MOS i don't need to put the prime blimp on which doesn't add much weight anyways. I even used my 16BL on my Glidecam V20 for some steadicam shots. There is even a magazine that is meant for steadicam work for BL that I do not own - but would buy in an instant!

 

Ok I said too much. Should have stopped typing after the motor answer... just got caught up, sorry;

 

PS. I am not suggesting here that the BL is better or the same as SR... NO WAY... but it is a camera that you can shoot sync film with... make it work for you.

 

PS2. On one project, I had the image zoomed in on at the telecine to 16:9, as it was shot on slow stock and was possible for me to do this. It was for DVD anyways.... and the image (after the zoom/crop) was great

[Tim Carroll]

Great information Lav, thanks for sharing.

 

You've invested alot of time, effort and money into your BL, and that's the way to really learn the camera and get the best out of it.

 

I agree about the 16:9, especially if you use slow stocks and plan to go to DVD or even HD DVD. It gets dodgy when you look at blowing 16mm up for theater projection. Then Super 16 is noticeably better, and naturally 35 is better than that.

 

Thanks again for the info.

-Tim

[Lav Bodnaruk]

No problem Tim!

 

I am glad I could pass on some info.

The BL was my first film camera. I definitely invested a lot of time and money into her, learning much along the way. I am very happy with the images it is able to produce for me.

 

The irony is that I rent SR2 or 3 for any job that comes my way these days. It is difficult to step in front of the clients with a camera they may not recognize.

 

I am a huge fan of super 16mm although the project I plan to shoot in a week I am budgeting for 35mm, and I find that I do this more and more, for I developed a good relationship with a rental company here;

 

I wish I was rolling more film through my BL and can only hope that all those that posted on this occasion, helping Rebecca through her dilemma (one way or another), do not let their beloved film cameras just sit on the shelf collecting dust.

 

This post is making me re-think the ownership of my BL and letting it out in the world, so that it can make some pretty pictures;

 

 

Tim, anytime you have an SR2 for sale, please make sure I know about it :D

Thanks bud

[Tim Carroll]

Tim, anytime you have an SR2 for sale, please make sure I know about it :D

Thanks bud

 

Anytime I have an SR2 I'm hangin' on to it. Dream camera, a Super 16 SR2 with Jurgen's video tap, and set of Zeiss Super Speeds and a good set of sticks. And if I'm really dreaming, a set of Cooke S4's.

 

I got a Super 16 LTR right now that I am in love with, and I'm halfway through my Super Speed set (got the 9.5 and 16, still need the 12 and 25) and I still have the Zeiss 10-100 T2 Mk1 which does Super 16 from 32-100, so I'm sittin' pretty right now.

 

If I see a nice SR2, I will definitely give you a heads up buddy.

 

-Tim

[Sam Wells]

Jensen 505 gives me 2fps - 48fps. Wish I could get up to 50fps but cannot.

 

But here is the thing. I actually ENJOY having an add-on sync unit, for often I found I don't need to use it (if there is no speaking) and I need to reduce the weight of the camera. For those that claim this camera is not easy for hand held work I beg to differ, as I just shot a short (completely hand held) on Sr2 and found it more annoying that working with my BL. I was using focus myself as there was a lot of dipping in and out so the BL would have been OK for there was no need for focus puller to sit next to me.

 

I worked on a bunch of Indie films in the 80's with 16BL, they all had the Jensen - in fact IIRC that's what the NY rental houses had too. Worked fine.

 

...As for hand holding a 16BL I can think of 50 things I'd rather do, more if I had time :ph34r: but that's "just me" I suppose (except I'm sure it ain't just me, but....)

 

I was never a fan of that camera to be honest, but it is a tank I guess.

 

-Sam (not a tank driver <_< )

[Leo Anthony Vale]

remember that today the most welcoming ratio is 16:9, and a camera like this you can't do true super 16

 

( tim Carroll did crop 16 to 16:9 and it looked pretty cool)

 

But S16 is actually 1.66/1 AKA 15:9, so it still has to be cropped for 16:9

& in 35mm, 1.85:1 is normally a cropped format, usually shot with a 1.37:1 camera aperture.

[Lav Bodnaruk]

I worked on a bunch of Indie films in the 80's with 16BL, they all had the Jensen - in fact IIRC that's what the NY rental houses had too. Worked fine.

 

...As for hand holding a 16BL I can think of 50 things I'd rather do, more if I had time :ph34r: but that's "just me" I suppose (except I'm sure it ain't just me, but....)

 

I was never a fan of that camera to be honest, but it is a tank I guess.

 

-Sam (not a tank driver <_< )

 

Hey Sam,

 

that was a great comment mate. The 16BL is a tank :) I think I like the fact that it is really steady on my shoulder, most likely due to the weight. The finder fits me perfect and the camera never separates from my head. The blimped lens makes it somewhat easy to pull focus if done by an operator at the same time... but no, it is not just you who thinks its too heavy and who would rather use a different camera or do 50 other things :)

 

I am surprised no one attacked 'loading' of BL. I used to hear loaders complain that it was hard/impossible/annoying to load... none of which bothered me, I owned it, of course I could load it fast with no errors.

 

anyways, thanks for the post Sam. It made me laugh.

I'm off to a physio, got to work out with her daily since my shoulder re-construction :D

[Hans Engstrom]

I am surprised no one attacked 'loading' of BL. I used to hear loaders complain that it was hard/impossible/annoying to load... none of which bothered me, I owned it, of course I could load it fast with no errors.

 

The 16BL is not that different to load then a Arri 435. On a side note, it will be interesting to see how much the LTR on Ebay will go for, still under 2K and under 2 days left. I hope someone here gets it if it will go cheap.

[Tim Carroll]

Uh-oh, I think Rebecca's camera just got put up on eBay:

 

Arriflex 16BL just like the one on Craigslist

 

 

-Tim

[Mike Rizos]

Uh-oh, I think Rebecca's camera just got put up on eBay:

 

Arriflex 16BL just like the one on Craigslist

-Tim

 

I'm gonna take a wild guess and say, if it goes the distance, the camera will sell for $1,163.75. Anybody else care to take a guess?

[Scott Cohen]

I'm gonna take a wild guess and say, if it goes the distance, the camera will sell for $1,163.75. Anybody else care to take a guess?

 

Might actually go lower. The seller only wants a local pickup. That will hurt the end price.

 

Maybe Rebecca will get a deal if she is reading this...

 

SC

[Tim Carroll]

Might actually go lower. The seller only wants a local pickup. That will hurt the end price.

 

Maybe Rebecca will get a deal if she is reading this...

 

SC

 

Yeah, and the original Craigslist post has now lowered the price to $1495. The pictures are different, but the camera descibed it just the same and they both mention local pickup.

 

-Tim

[Keneu Luca]

I wonder how difficult it would be to find a middle-man to pick it up for you and mail it to you?

 

Especially with the internet and how easy it is to contact people. There's obviously a trust factor involved that makes this tricky.

 

I guess you could, right? Every major town has some kind of local courier. You send the seller the money (paypal, check, whatever) then you hire the local offical insured courier to pick up the item and he ships it to you. Of course you pay a little extra, but how much more? I mean if you want something bad enough, can't get it elswhere, or the deal is mind-blowingly cheap.

 

I don't know. Am I missing something? Seems doable....

Edited February 8, 2007 by Keneu Luca

[Sam Wells]

I am surprised no one attacked 'loading' of BL. I used to hear loaders complain that it was hard/impossible/annoying to load... none of which bothered me, I owned it, of course I could load it fast with no errors.

 

anyways, thanks for the post Sam. It made me laugh.

I'm off to a physio, got to work out with her daily since my shoulder re-construction :D

 

:D

 

p.s. Loading a 16BL is really no different than a 2C etc....

 

Find some "35mm" loaders !

 

-Sam

[Scott Cohen]

Yeah, and the original Craigslist post has now lowered the price to $1495. The pictures are different, but the camera descibed it just the same and they both mention local pickup.

 

-Tim

 

Hey Tim,

 

Forgive me for calling you an elitist last week and being a toal a**. Was a really tough week, taking it out on people I don't know... I suck, I know...

 

Regarding the BL, it might be the same camera, the seller trying two different routes?

 

If it goes any lower I might go for it even though I might never use it. I actually think the BL looks pretty cool. It looks like a movie camera.

 

I have always like top mount mag cameras, Beaulieu, Arri BL, even the Scoopic with the 400 footer.

 

Peace,

SC