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Brian Drysdale

Epic 5k

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Here we go again...

 

No need to be condescending. I said from the very beginning that RED ONE would not be the film slayer. I figured something coming out in 2009 or 2010 (the generation after RED, Genesis, etc) would probably be the film slayer. I've been saying this for a couple of years now, and it is my opinion and belief. Film's day will come. Film is all but dead in still photography now. If you thinking moving image film is somehow immune from the progress of digital technology, you are simply wrong.

 

I think by going "5K" and upping the price to $40K, they are aiming squarely at the real feature film market. I could be wrong. Maybe it will be the generation AFTER "Epic", but sooner or later, film is going bye bye. There will be some who cling to it for a decade or so, but then it will really just be dead enders. There are people now who shoot chemical film stills, but they are very rare.

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No need to be condescending. I said from the very beginning that RED ONE would not be the film slayer. I figured something coming out in 2009 or 2010 (the generation after RED, Genesis, etc) would probably be the film slayer. I've been saying this for a couple of years now, and it is my opinion and belief. Film's day will come. Film is all but dead in still photography now. If you thinking moving image film is somehow immune from the progress of digital technology, you are simply wrong.

 

I think by going "5K" and upping the price to $40K, they are aiming squarely at the real feature film market. I could be wrong. Maybe it will be the generation AFTER "Epic", but sooner or later, film is going bye bye. There will be some who cling to it for a decade or so, but then it will really just be dead enders. There are people now who shoot chemical film stills, but they are very rare.

Here we go again...again...

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I think by going "5K" and upping the price to $40K, they are aiming squarely at the real feature film market.

They also hit a point that'll be very attractive for major network prime time TV -- the posted episodic dramas.

 

 

 

-- J.S.

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They also hit a point that'll be very attractive for major network prime time TV -- the posted episodic dramas.

 

-- J.S.

 

Indeed. The "fanboy" and indie types are going to moan and get left in the dust by the price tag on this 5K Epic, but it's not aimed at them at all. My guess is that Jannard has been losing a lot of money on Red Ones, but will now find a profitable model in the "Epic." Movie, commercial and TV producers have loads and loads of money at their disposal, and Jannard will probably recoup his losses on Red One with this new model. That's my guess anyway.

 

Goulder, do you have anything constructive to add to the conversation?

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Movie, commercial and TV producers have loads and loads of money at their disposal, ....

Well, two out of three. TV budgets are tight. Half the price of the oldest HD technology may be a real good place to be.

 

 

 

-- J.S.

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Well, two out of three. TV budgets are tight. Half the price of the oldest HD technology may be a real good place to be.

-- J.S.

 

Yeah.

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Movie, commercial and TV producers have loads and loads of money at their disposal, and Jannard will probably recoup his losses on Red One with this new model. That's my guess anyway.

That doesn't make sense. They didn't make One for charity, they made it to turn a profit. I doubt they're saying, "Uh oh, this camera ain't doin so well. Let's make another one." ...?

 

Goulder, do you have anything constructive to add to the conversation?

I think his point is, "another shrubbery?"

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That doesn't make sense. They didn't make One for charity, they made it to turn a profit. I doubt they're saying, "Uh oh, this camera ain't doin so well. Let's make another one." ...?

 

You think Jannard is turning a profit on his RED Ones??? Lol. He's probably losing about 5 grand a camera, would be my guess.

Edited by Tom Lowe

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You think Jannard is turning a profit on his RED Ones??? Lol. He's probably losing about 5 grand a camera, would be my guess.

 

Hi,

 

Your joking, he probably is making 5k a camera. His business plan was on making far less cameras than have been ordered or probably delivered to date.

 

Stephen

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it's nothing short of a miracle to see how people have been eating up Jim Janard's "I'm in it for the love of making movies" attitude with a silver spoon. come on, he's a businessman through and through, RED's not a charity organisation. how do you think he earned his fortune in the first place, people like that don't grow a soft spot when they are getting older. the genius of RED's marketing strategy is exactly to make people believe that they are the only corporation that is not solely interested in making a profit, they are just in it for the "fun". what a nice way to spend your euros or dollars when such a warm, "we love all filmmakers" feeling is attached to the price tag. come on, wake up already!!!

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Film is all but dead in still photography now.

Funny how I have no trouble at all buying stills film and getting it developed and printed.

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Funny how I have no trouble at all buying stills film and getting it developed and printed.

 

Actually Max I've got to kind of disagree- how many places you can get 120 film processes now? There were dozens and dozens of places in London alone a decade ago (I actually used to work in Joe's Basement), now there is Metro and er, that's about it. I slightly exaggerate but it really is a tiny market now. I do think this new camera could be interesting (cue sharp intake of breath) especially when it is upgraded by P+S to have an optical viewfinder. I'm just waiting to see if they have done anything with the new sensor/ shutter to see if there is an improvement on the weird motion/ milky look of the red one. I also find it interesting that people seem to think that the Epic is for proper films and that the Red One is for indies. The rental price for an Epic will be a hundred or so more than a Red One (which, I'm sure will go down, but is rediculously over priced currently- people are chucking around rate card prices of £350 a day!). I mean why would you go for a red one over an epic? I'm quietly hopeful about this one, especially if they can implement an anamorphic centre cut/ viewing option. As for the Scarlet well my pocket dvcam has packed in so it would seem an ideal replacement for the family videocam....

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Unfortunately I don't shoot medium format film, only 35mm and you can have that processed on every corner in London it seems.

 

My main argument is that yes in stills digital has taken over a larger share of the market, especially in the consumer/news part, but film is still very much around. There are plenty of professionals shooting on film, especially when it comes to say landscape photography where medium and large format film rules. These people can afford to stick with film and will continue to do so because they care more about quality/look than convenience/fast turn-around.

 

It takes no great foresight to predict that in motion picture digital will also take a larger market share in the next years and decades, but to think that film will disappear completely is just plain wrong.

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I did say that there are some people still shooting chemical still 35mm film, but they are fewer and farther between these days. The 'Blads and new 21MP Canon 1Ds Mark III are just more nails in the coffin.

 

No one is saying that film will go away completely, but as you say, it doesn't take Nastadamus to realize that moving images will sooner or later follow what happened with stills. It's a matter of time. Seems to me that the largest impediment left right now keeping film alive (aside from nostalgia and a general love the look of film) is the lack of dynamic range in digital cinema cameras.

 

Genesis is almost "there" in terms of being a film slayer, but it will probably be the next generation that really seals the deal.

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You think Jannard is turning a profit on his RED Ones??? Lol. He's probably losing about 5 grand a camera, would be my guess.

I seriously doubt it. You can't realistically price the thing up because the major costs - R&D - will be spread over the sales for Scarlet and Epic too.

Having seen the pricing, he must be making very good money on the accessories, and of course will make even more with the other cameras, and red mattbox new lenses etc.

None of which is to knock the guy, just to inject a note of realism.

 

No one is saying that film will go away completely

Isn't that exactly what you were saying, with phrases like "film slayer" and "already...all but dead"?

BTW it's "Nostradamus". :P

 

Nigel Smith

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Isn't that exactly what you were saying, with phrases like "film slayer" and "already...all but dead"?

That's what struck me also ;)

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That's what struck me also ;)

 

Well one of these digital cinema cameras, or a couple of them from the same generation, are likely to represent the knee of an exponential curve in digital replacement of chemical film movie cameras. The Canon 1D series is a sort of a "film slayer." That doesn't mean chemical film has vanished completely, but several flagship, high-end DLSRs certainly helped speed the transition for pros.

 

Why does everything have to black and white with you film buffs? :) Sheesh, every word is parsed and held to extreme scrutiny. I realize a lot of digital koolaid drinkers popping off at the mouth over the years has probably laid the groundwork for your skepticism, but come on... we can have a rational conversation about the transition to digital without everyone being so defensive.

Edited by Tom Lowe

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Overall, I would tend to agree that in the coming years there will be a migration over to digital just due to cost factors. This of course begs one to wonder if we will see the same thing which happened with DV, with a lot of films shot on it, at a loss, generally speaking of film-quality (not image quality.) If that is the case, then perhaps there will be a stronger hold onto film? it's just something which crossed my mind, and I apologize that it's not totally related; but I think it could be a possibility (and this isn't to say the Red is a DV camera, or as easy to use as a DV camera etc).

As to still film; especially the larger stuff, I would wager that most people shooting 120mm, or even 35mm professionally are probably doing their own development. At least for b/w.

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Overall, I would tend to agree that in the coming years there will be a migration over to digital just due to cost factors. This of course begs one to wonder if we will see the same thing which happened with DV, with a lot of films shot on it, at a loss, generally speaking of film-quality (not image quality.) If that is the case, then perhaps there will be a stronger hold onto film? it's just something which crossed my mind, and I apologize that it's not totally related; but I think it could be a possibility (and this isn't to say the Red is a DV camera, or as easy to use as a DV camera etc).

As to still film; especially the larger stuff, I would wager that most people shooting 120mm, or even 35mm professionally are probably doing their own development. At least for b/w.

 

Much will depend on the quality of the productions shot on the RED cameras. I gather already someone is planning to shoot a feature on a Scarlet - I don't know if this is part of the beta testing process before the production cameras come out.

 

Shooting on film was a good method for distributors to select films without having to watch large numbers shot on DV. They knew that there had been some money spent on it and they'd take a punt at looking at it. Of course, distributors also look for name actors as well, which is forgotten by a lot of indie film makers trying to sell their movie.

 

I suppose in the future you could have a producer whispering knowingly into the distributor's ear in a dark corner "and it's shot on film" like it's some exotic drink or drug.

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I wouldnt be surprised if in the very near future Kodak and then Fuji will make drastic cuts in the cost of there products [not before time ] and then the poop will hit the fan .

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BTW it's "Nostradamus". :P

I thought it was the ancient Mayan calendar that predicted the end of film on December 21, 2012. ;-)

 

 

 

 

-- J.S.

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I'm simply thinking this film vs. digital bullshit annoying. You naysayers are just serving the interest of your opposition. The more you posting the more RED cameras will be sold.

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That doesn't make sense. They didn't make One for charity, they made it to turn a profit. I doubt they're saying, "Uh oh, this camera ain't doin so well. Let's make another one." ...?

 

 

You think Jannard is turning a profit on his RED Ones??? Lol. He's probably losing about 5 grand a camera, would be my guess.

 

 

Hi,

 

Your joking, he probably is making 5k a camera. His business plan was on making far less cameras than have been ordered or probably delivered to date.

 

Stephen

 

He simply can't lose or he would close the door. Epic is not a closing. He's just opening new doors. I don't believe that Epic may bring more profit than the RED ONE. He will try to bring some early adopters -- part of his strategy IMO. But the hype is not more around the US$17,500.00... As loyal customer, my disappointment. I wish him all the best though.

 

Unfortunately, the RED ONE has just been a test meal under the manufacturer's POV. A bonus under our own (the RED ONE customers' POV). And it's ended.

 

No matter what Jim may come to say on subject. He needs to keep up the hype (alive). Including in order to the success of the Epic.

 

What can we do? Our part is to be ready for helping him to get his cinema camera company. He has given us the 4K milestone. Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn if the Graeme's debayer does mean just around 3.2K -- something that you geek naysayers never understood or didn't want to.

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I suppose in the future you could have a producer whispering knowingly into the distributor's ear in a dark corner "and it's shot on film" like it's some exotic drink or drug.

 

 

We got 4 flats from some 5219, man, it's the good stuff. . .I can hear it now

 

You make a valid point about the name actors as well. Something I myself did not take into consideration. In truth, though, I think the point that the distributors are looking at what it was shot on or a name actors as some form of indication of how much money went into it is interesting, though (i don't think owen wilson work star in my film if i wasn't paying him.)

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