Revolutionizing the Industry!!!....!

K Borowski · November 24, 2008

I'm not trying to take cheap shots at film. I was defending digital, and pointing out that in SOME ways, it is already superior to film.

ISO 3200 is just the beginning. People will be shooting a ISO 6400, and up.

BTW, this night 5Dm2 video was just posted at vimeo....

http://www.vimeo.com/2327058

They used to make 3200-speed negative film that probably had a true film speed of very near 3200. Kodak used to have a 1600 speed negative film, and 800 speed vision stock, a 1600-speed E-6 film.

I've seen photographs, from 1978 mind you, of film "acceleration" techniques used to increase film speed to speeds of up to 10,000, with 200 slide film.

You could probably, albeit with grainy results, get modern film speed up to well over 50,000. But again, except for a special effect, what's the point anyway?

Kodak allegedly developed a true-10,000 speed direct reversal film just a couple of years ago with a true film speed of *100,000* It wasn't released due to lack of interest. . .

This stuff is interesting, but frankly, you'd blow out a digital file shot at this speed very easily with the dimmest of lights.

And, by eliminating all but dim ambient lighting, where is there any room for actual artistic control of said lighting. Low light gimmick photography has been with us since "Collateral" and frankly, so many people hated that movie (I loved it) that it probably killed the chances of anyone attempting it until next decade.

David Auner aac · November 24, 2008

Yeah, of course there have ALWAYS been bad movies, now and then. However the stuff we see today is SOOO bad, with few exceptions. Whereas movies in the past seemed at least better written, including the many of the bad ones.

[snipped]

But we digress . . .

Hi Saul,

I'm totally with you on this. I was just pointing out that it is rather easy to make a generalization on topics like that because the past seems so compressed from our point of view. Back on topic now! :D

Cheers, Dave

James Steven Beverly · November 24, 2008

I hate to disagree with you David. You make a good point that there may have been some really bad movies back in the 30s and 40s, but there's a big difference between today's movies and yesterday's movies. The old days have some very great movies that can now be called classics. Movies like Citizen Kane, The Wizard Of Oz, Casablanca, and many more. Today's movies, however, are not so. In fact, I think the last movies we've seen that have the potential to become classics are the Lord Of The Rings movies. That's it.

You can look at EVERY era in the history of film and there are "Classics" from The Great Train Robbery to the Battleship Potemken to the Jazz Singer to Casablanca, to Gone With the Wind to It's a Wonderful Life, to Citizen Kane to Rebel Without a Cause to On the Waterfront to The Odd Couple to The Good The Bad and The Ugly to Easy Rider to the Godfather to Shaft to The French Connection to Young Frankenstein to Saturday Night Fever to Star Wars to Alien to Grease to Apocalypse Now to The Breakfast Club to Back to the Future to Bladerunner to Platoon to Blue Velvet to Jurassic Park to Die Hard to Silence of the Lambs to Apollo 13 to Titanic to The Lord of the Rings to Pirates Of the Caribbean to O Brother Where art Thou? to Casino Royal and ALL the GREAT movies I missed. There were no "good old days" or bad old days, there were just days and these are the BEST days because we live in them at this moment and our art is alive and breathing and talking to us right here right now. Trust me the best has not yet arrived, it lies before us ready to be born! All we have to do is breath life into it. B)

Stephen Williams · November 24, 2008

Laugh now, like many here did at the Red camera. Because you won't be laughing for long. :lol:

Hi,

I don't know about you, but a few people are laughing about the DSLR Killer that will kill RED One long before either DSLR's or Film are dead.

Stephen

Brian Drysdale · November 24, 2008

I'm not trying to take cheap shots at film. I was defending digital, and pointing out that in SOME ways, it is already superior to film.

ISO 3200 is just the beginning. People will be shooting a ISO 6400, and up.

BTW, this night 5Dm2 video was just posted at vimeo....

http://www.vimeo.com/2327058

After a certain point there's a law of diminishing returns. The only time I can recall wanting speeds of 6400 ASA plus was filming a documentary down country lanes with very limited street lighting and nor wanting to use the on camera light because the natives weren't friendly. Image intensifiers, do cover these situations (if only in monochrome), but the type of productions involved also tend not to want FF35. It's something that's perhaps more useful shooting wildlife than drama, but that's not to say that someone won't shoot a drama under starlight.

I'm not sure about superior, but more different and people having the option to use the media that best suits their production.

Tom Lowe · November 24, 2008

Brian, I think what will happen is that once people understand that they shoot at these higher speeds, new types of shooting situations will become possible. We will be dreaming up amazing new stuff to shoot... believe me!

How about shooting by candlelight only? Kubrick had to jump through ridiculous hoops to make it happen on Barry, but the 5D Mark II is a $2,700 USD camera that can shoot that stuff straight out of the box... onto CF cards! And with a larger format!

I hope my man Jim Jannard is paying attention to the high-ISO ratings on the 5Dm2, because this is the new gold standard.

Benson Marks · November 24, 2008

You can look at EVERY era in the history of film and there are "Classics" from The Great Train Robbery to the Battleship Potemken to the Jazz Singer to Casablanca, to Gone With the Wind to It's a Wonderful Life, to Citizen Kane to Rebel Without a Cause to On the Waterfront to The Odd Couple to The Good The Bad and The Ugly to Easy Rider to the Godfather to Shaft to The French Connection to Young Frankenstein to Saturday Night Fever to Star Wars to Alien to Grease to Apocalypse Now to The Breakfast Club to Back to the Future to Bladerunner to Platoon to Blue Velvet to Jurassic Park to Die Hard to Silence of the Lambs to Apollo 13 to Titanic to The Lord of the Rings to Pirates Of the Caribbean to O Brother Where art Thou? to Casino Royal and ALL the GREAT movies I missed. There were no "good old days" or bad old days, there were just days and these are the BEST days because we live in them at this moment and our art is alive and breathing and talking to us right here right now. Trust me the best has not yet arrived, it lies before us ready to be born! All we have to do is breath life into it. B)

O Brother, Where Art Thou? was decent, but not necessarily what I would call a classic.

Casino Royale is still a continuation of the bond series, so I'm not going to count it as a classic yet.

Only the first Pirates Of The Caribbean was great, but if you're saying the entire trilogy was excellent, I have to disagree.

I will agree with you on one thing James, the best hasn't yet arrived, and if Hollywood keeps on doing what they're doing right now, I don't think the best will come again.

Brian Drysdale · November 24, 2008

Brian, I think what will happen is that once people understand that they shoot at these higher speeds, new types of shooting situations will become possible. We will be dreaming up amazing new stuff to shoot... believe me!

How about shooting by candlelight only? Kubrick had to jump through ridiculous hoops to make it happen on Barry, but the 5D Mark II is a $2,700 USD camera that can shoot that stuff straight out of the box... onto CF cards! And with a larger format!

I hope my man Jim Jannard is paying attention to the high-ISO ratings on the 5Dm2, because this is the new gold standard.

I expect they will, but 99% of productions won't need 6400 ASA - having a 320 ASA sensor already commonly involves a heavy ND pack - something that perhaps doesn't get noticed on video cameras with their internal filters. On a SD video camera I'd rarely put in more than 9db gain.

However, having a higher sensitivity would be useful for slow motion at lower light levels.

The proposed 800 ASA rating of the new RED cameras would allow you to shoot Kubrick's candles with standard high speed lenses.

I'm not knocking having the option of 6400 ASA, just that it doesn't compromise having a lower rating as the normal set up. Shooting daylight exteriors 50 ASA or 64ASA is fine for most days and you still need an ND if you don't want to shoot at f16.

James Steven Beverly · November 25, 2008

O Brother, Where Art Thou? was decent, but not necessarily what I would call a classic.

Casino Royale is still a continuation of the bond series, so I'm not going to count it as a classic yet.

Only the first Pirates Of The Caribbean was great, but if you're saying the entire trilogy was excellent, I have to disagree.

I will agree with you on one thing James, the best hasn't yet arrived, and if Hollywood keeps on doing what they're doing right now, I don't think the best will come again.

OK, fine then let's say Fargo, The Big Lebowski, Raising Arizona,. Blood Simple or MOST of the Coen Brothers movies. :D and I happen to think the entire POTC series (they're planning a 4th installment so it'll no longer be a trilogy) is classic but I'll settle for the Legend of The Black Pearl as a classic. As far as classics go, name me ONE James Bond movie that ISN'T a classic?! so I stand by me choice there and I really don't think you realize just how many GOOD movies are made each year. There's nothing really all that different about Hollywood other than is doesn't have the monopoly it once did and there are new studios that are now major players in the game. A LOT of the films now are indies so who's to blame for bad films if there is anyone to actually blame? We're the consumers, so we really control the market. I personally think movie are better than they've ever been and will be better still. "Course, I've always been an optimist at heart! B)

Benson Marks · November 25, 2008

OK, fine then let's say Fargo, The Big Lebowski, Raising Arizona,. Blood Simple or MOST of the Coen Brothers movies. :D and I happen to think the entire POTC series (they're planning a 4th installment so it'll no longer be a trilogy) is classic but I'll settle for the Legend of The Black Pearl as a classic. As far as classics go, name me ONE James Bond movie that ISN'T a classic?! so I stand by me choice there and I really don't think you realize just how many GOOD movies are made each year. There's nothing really all that different about Hollywood other than is doesn't have the monopoly it once did and there are new studios that are now major players in the game. A LOT of the films now are indies so who's to blame for bad films if there is anyone to actually blame? We're the consumers, so we really control the market. I personally think movie are better than they've ever been and will be better still. "Course, I've always been an optimist at heart! B)

I didn't say the Coen Brothers were awful, James. I just said that O' Brother, Where Art Thou was decent. In fact, I think that was their worst movie, and even then, getting a decent rating isn't a bad thing for your worst movie is it?

Now, about the pirates. Not meaning to offend you, but to say that the entire trilogy was classic is almost like saying the last two Jurassic Park movies were classic. Yes, I thought the last two were nothing compared to the first one.

As for Bond, Octopussy and The Living daylights are Bond movies we all want to forget about. So yes, there are Bond movies that aren't classics.

Yes, Hollywood isn't the monopoly it once was. Why do you suppose that is? All I can think of is because nobody likes what's coming out in Hollywood, and don't tell me it's because of the economy. Hollywood has been this way a few years before we got into the economic slump we're in right now. To prove it, 2005 is probably the worst year in Hollywood. We had the lowest audience attendance of all time in theaters across the nation, Hollywood had the lowest ratings of all time and to top it all off, 2005 had some of the worst rated movies of all time, and the economy wasn't even a big issue at that time, either. I'd like to be optimistic, James, but I just don't see Hollywood getting better anytime soon.

I stand by my saying that the last movies that have the potential to be considered as classics are the Lord Of The Rings movies. I hope Hollywood can make a turnaround and become the great place it once was, but I just don't see that happening for, at least, a while.

Jesse Lee Cairnie · November 27, 2008

I'm a little confused by your post Jesse. You just said that its ALL about the equipment and not the guy who makes the movie, yet now you're using Roger Deakins as an example of somebody who could do things with DSLR better than most people can with a 35mm Panavision, which is contradictory to what you said before? If it was all about the equipment, Deakins would be shooting everything with the largest camera he can get his hands on.

I don't know if I'm taking your post out of context, but something in it has me confused.

The first part of my statement "cause we know its ALL about technology" was sarcasm... my comment about Deakins was the supporting comment... aka... technology is irrelevant... its what you make with what you have that is relevant...

Has anyone read the American Cinematographer where Deakins talks about technology... he basically mentions that he was conversing with Conrad Hall about photo technology. How Hall loved and embraced digital technology, how the new technologies provide even more options to add to the tool box, how clinging to the past will leave you stuck. I cant recall the exact words or the exact issue but... what does that tell you... THE cinematographer that everyone wishes they could be, would totally scrap film if he could.. would take a totally digital work flow and abandon film if it suited his story...

I think people who cling to the past and latch on to what has already happened "in the glory days" are like the 40 year old High School Quarterback who still talks about "That one play." You know "Uncle Rico" of Napoleon Dynamite fame

Why cant we as filmmakers move on... yes Citizen Kane was the most beautiful film ever... Yes Casablanca was the best script ever written... good for them... lets move on and move forward... lets make contemporary narrative films on digital cameras... lets push and grow our craft into the next generation...

Cause as much as we all like to think we know so much... Conrad Hall walks into the room (figuratively) and suddenly we all feel like Film School Freshmen also figuratively)....