John Krawlzik Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 About 20 years ago a person named "Mark" was selling a conversion kit to Super 16 for the Eclair ACL with a new correctly designed and machined gate, 144 degree shutter and other proper parts. First, I assume that these are long gone by now, second, does anyone know who Mark is or what happened with his conversion kit idea? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Duncan Brown Posted January 12 Premium Member Share Posted January 12 (edited) Here's a trail of breadcrumbs to follow... https://my16mm.com/eclairacl/list_topica/msg00937.html I wonder if super16@aol.com still works?? Duncan Edited January 12 by Duncan Brown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Krawlzik Posted January 12 Author Share Posted January 12 I tried, it does not work - bounces back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heikki Repo Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 This is something I have wondered about as well. Reading his web pages (https://web.archive.org/web/20040413012457/http://members.aol.com/super16acl/menu.htm ) you can find this address: Cinecan Productions, PO Box 8700, Universal City, CA 91618. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heikki Repo Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 1 minute ago, Heikki Repo said: This is something I have wondered about as well. Reading his web pages (https://web.archive.org/web/20040413012457/http://members.aol.com/super16acl/menu.htm ) you can find this address: Cinecan Productions, PO Box 8700, Universal City, CA 91618. And ah ha! IMDB lists one movie by Cinecan Productions from the early 90s, directed by Mark Sobel. Might that be the right Mark? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steven jackson Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 I remember this and it seems that the installation needed to be done by a profe$$ional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregg MacPherson Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 (edited) On 1/13/2024 at 7:05 AM, Heikki Repo said: This is something I have wondered about as well. Reading his web pages (https://web.archive.org/web/20040413012457/http://members.aol.com/super16acl/menu.htm ) you can find this address: Cinecan Productions, PO Box 8700, Universal City, CA 91618. Heikki, have you been through those web pages and scavenged for useful contacts etc, like on the camera service techs page..The first one I explored seemed a bit problematic, but there were some new names (for me). Steven, those ACL S16 conversion kits, I'm sure were intended for camera techs, not for DIY. (so I think we agree) Gregg Edited January 16 by Gregg MacPherson more words Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heikki Repo Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 6 minutes ago, Gregg MacPherson said: Heikki, have you been through those web pages and scavenged for useful contacts etc, like on the camera service techs page..The first one I explored seemed a bit problematic, but there were some new names (for me). Yes, unfortunately most are either dead or retired (long ago). But it's a very useful website for technical stuff! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steven jackson Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 I've looked at this page many times over but somehow missed this little bit of info on being able to adapt the NPR viewfinder to the ACL, which I didn't think was possible, however, the author states that he has done this and it was adapted by a company called Optical Electro House in Culver City. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Duncan Brown Posted January 17 Premium Member Share Posted January 17 3 hours ago, steven jackson said: I've looked at this page many times over but somehow missed this little bit of info on being able to adapt the NPR viewfinder to the ACL, which I didn't think was possible, however, the author states that he has done this and it was adapted by a company called Optical Electro House in Culver City. Optical Electro House seems to have been quite the group of Eclair experts back in the day. I have a Super 16 NPR (that seems to have been converted by OEH), with a Tobin-clone sync motor (that seems to have been made by OEH), that came in cases plastered in OEH stickers, with the last shipping labels showing it came back from OEH. I haven't dug too deeply but haven't found any obvious evidence of what happened to them. Sure would be nice if someone could track down whatever might be left of that operation or its people and find answers to questions like "Wait, you CAN adapt an NPR finder to an ACL?!" Duncan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steven jackson Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 (edited) Was owned by a fellow named George Zorzoli whose premises is now occupied by Halftime Barbers, according to Google maps. Edited January 17 by steven jackson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Duncan Brown Posted January 17 Premium Member Share Posted January 17 Well that at least explains why they were such Eclair experts. From the May 1973 Journal of the SMPTE: George Zorzoli has been appointed West Coast Service Manager for Eclair Corp. of America, 62 W. 45 St., New York, NY 10036. He has been with Eclair since 1969 as an electronics and camera technician. He was formerly with Birns & Sawyer. Duncan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Krawlzik Posted January 17 Author Share Posted January 17 I had an ACL converted many years ago to Super 16 by OEH and was very disappointed. The shutter was apparently not converted and the timing could never be set right - always some flicker in the upper right frame as the mirror could not be set clear. Also, one mag was fine, but the other scratched. I’ve concluded that the shutter has to be converted to 144 degrees, the mirror shifted 1mm, and the shutter connecting rod swapped out with a slightly longer stroke. The problem then is the body has to be slightly machined for the extra mirror swing. I know a lot more now than I did then… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heikki Repo Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 I have two ACLs converted by Les Bosher. The earlier one has no flicker at all. I'm very satisfied with that one - and apparently the shutter wasn't extended in that one. This latter one has flicker in one corner. As far as I know, the issue is related to the mirror. When I first received it from Les the shutter/mirror timing was perfect. Unfortunately the mirror would touch the insides, after which I sent it back to Les to be machined a bit. So, I'm not sure if that was done, because now there isn't enough time for the mirror - which leads me to believe that Les (only...) changed the rod that pushes and pulls the mirror. This affects its timing through how far it moves in each side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Krawlzik Posted January 18 Author Share Posted January 18 A few years ago, I was talking to Paul at Visual Products and he said that they don't do Super 16 conversions for ACLs anymore. He did send me his notes on their conversion that he used to do. I also bought a new aluminum 144 shutter blade from him, a new mirror surface and a connecting rod for Super 16. I'm finally getting around to trying the "kit". I had an old ACL body that was not being used, so I started modifying it. To produce the shutter, you need to remove the old blade with heat, machine off 2mm from the counterbalance ring, then epoxy it all back together. The beauty of the aluminum shutter is that it weighs less, and requires little or no extra balancing weight to compensate for the 2mm removed from the counterbalance. I put together a little rig to test the static balance and it works perfectly. He also recommends shifting the actual mirror 1mm toward the viewfinder. This is a bit tricky, as you have to heat the existing mirror and remove it from the arm, then take off 1mm from the "dumb" side of the mount, and reglue the new mirror to that edge so it is now centered over the Super 16 image. The only trick is getting the mirror reglued to be absolutely flat. I reassembled everything and adjusted the shutter timing and mirror - it's spot on. I must have got the mirror flat, because there's no noticeable wobble. I have the do the gate now. This was why I was asking about the HD 144 kit - I'd love to get a properly designed gate, even if that means having one machined. My assumption is that there aren't any unused existing HD 144 gates anymore. One more thing - this whole conversion does cause a problem with the mirror swinging too far and hitting the camera shell. That's very tricky to solve, as the hole under the lens mounting plate has to be ground out so far that it would let light leak into the camera. I'm thinking that by shifting the lens mounting plate towards the viewfinder to recenter it, this might cover up the extended hole. Oh well. I also have an NPR - it seems that converting that to Super 16 would be a lot easier, as the mirror shutter is adjustable by design, and the magazines actually have fewer rollers to modify. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steven jackson Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 6 minutes ago, John Krawlzik said: A few years ago, I was talking to Paul at Visual Products and he said that they don't do Super 16 conversions for ACLs anymore. He did send me his notes on their conversion that he used to do. I also bought a new aluminum 144 shutter blade from him, a new mirror surface and a connecting rod for Super 16. I'm finally getting around to trying the "kit". I had an old ACL body that was not being used, so I started modifying it. To produce the shutter, you need to remove the old blade with heat, machine off 2mm from the counterbalance ring, then epoxy it all back together. The beauty of the aluminum shutter is that it weighs less, and requires little or no extra balancing weight to compensate for the 2mm removed from the counterbalance. I put together a little rig to test the static balance and it works perfectly. He also recommends shifting the actual mirror 1mm toward the viewfinder. This is a bit tricky, as you have to heat the existing mirror and remove it from the arm, then take off 1mm from the "dumb" side of the mount, and reglue the new mirror to that edge so it is now centered over the Super 16 image. The only trick is getting the mirror reglued to be absolutely flat. I reassembled everything and adjusted the shutter timing and mirror - it's spot on. I must have got the mirror flat, because there's no noticeable wobble. I have the do the gate now. This was why I was asking about the HD 144 kit - I'd love to get a properly designed gate, even if that means having one machined. My assumption is that there aren't any unused existing HD 144 gates anymore. One more thing - this whole conversion does cause a problem with the mirror swinging too far and hitting the camera shell. That's very tricky to solve, as the hole under the lens mounting plate has to be ground out so far that it would let light leak into the camera. I'm thinking that by shifting the lens mounting plate towards the viewfinder to recenter it, this might cover up the extended hole. Oh well. I also have an NPR - it seems that converting that to Super 16 would be a lot easier, as the mirror shutter is adjustable by design, and the magazines actually have fewer rollers to modify. I have a camera that was converted by Paul Scaglione in 2005 and another thing he does is mill away part of the body (viewfinder side) so that once the mounting plate for the adapter is shifted to re-center the lens, the adapter can seat properly without hitting the camera body. My shutter is a 144 degree, with some counter weights on it, but I still get some flicker when using certain lenses. Yet some lenses, no flicker. ??? Perhaps VP would machine the gate for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heikki Repo Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 1 hour ago, John Krawlzik said: That's very tricky to solve, as the hole under the lens mounting plate has to be ground out so far that it would let light leak into the camera. I'm thinking that by shifting the lens mounting plate towards the viewfinder to recenter it, this might cover up the extended hole. Ah ha! I wonder if this was the cause for the super bad light leak in my first S16 ACL - using C-mount lenses (not TS-mount) light would leak in through the lens mount, unless I taped it. It was fixed by Bernie who mentioned that it wasn't that simple job... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Krawlzik Posted January 18 Author Share Posted January 18 Yes - even on a non-super16 ACL, the hole has to be filed out somewhat to allow the mirror swing. The TS lens mount is also drilled out slightly on the back at the same spot to allow the mirror to swing out. The funny thing is, if you manually crank the movement it may look like the mirror swing is fine - but once it's powered up by the motor, there must be enough momentum that the mirror will sometimes hit. Interestly, I've looked at ACLs through different generations, and the body casting was machined more and more in later models to try to prevent the mirror from hitting and rubbing. As for the flicker, I shot with a very good regular ACL for years - flicker was always a problem, especially with lenses that overshot the regular 16 frame like 25-85mm. The flicker happened when there was abundant backlighting, or something very bright near the edge of the frame. I always tried to light or frame in a way to minimize this situation. There was an Eclair service company called Procam, and a technician there named Dieter. He told me that the flicker was inherent in the ACL design, and resulted from the mirror passing closely to the groundglass and bouncing any strong light back onto the frame. There was a similar problem in the Arri 2C 35mm camera, and Arri installed black baffles in front of the groundglass to minimize it. In fact, the early 16 Arris like the 16S and 16M had the groundglass moved to the back of the viewfinder away from the mirror to avoid this problem. With the Arri 16BL and 16SR they installed the groundglass closer to the gate and mirror, but moved the mirror forward to eliminate a flicker problem. That is why certain lenses will not work with the SR and BL without hitting the mirror. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heikki Repo Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 Yes, the tendency of ACL to flicker in certain lighting conditions is something that can't be fully avoided. Then again, with the current digital tools something like that isn't as fatal as in the past. I'm thinking of just using deflicker in Resolve even with that other S16 ACL I have. The possible degradation of image it might cause in the corner of the image where the flicker is, is something I can live with. That camera has spent over 1.5 years in Wales which is enough ? One regular 16 ACL I have has also flicker, but its over the whole frame and I'm rather certain it's due to tightness in the movement. I'll have to open that one up again and play with the parts until I'm able to fit the gears in such way that the movement is fully smooth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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