Can you run a Lasergraphics scanner with your own computer or does it only work with the proprietary computer?

[Daniel D. Teoli Jr.]

Can you run a Lasergraphics scanner with your own computer or does it only work with the proprietary computer?

 

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[Perry Paolantonio]

You use the computer that it comes with because it's a complex setup and they make sure it works before it leaves their factory.

The computer isn't "proprietary." It's just a Windows 10 (maybe 11 now) machine with an Intel CPU, an ASUS motherboard, off-the-shelf GPUs, etc. But the hardware they support is chosen by and tested by Lasergraphics, and it just works. Different versions of the scanner have different computer setups - our 6.5k uses a camera with an ethernet interface (20GbE I think). They provide a Mellanox NIC to connect the camera to, and it has a specific driver version that works. We prefer to use Mellanox cards for our high speed network as well, but we can't on that machine because the driver for our NIC would interfere with the one they supply for the camera. 

So you use the computer they give you, and you can make minor modifications (add a RAID card, or another NIC, or whatever). In our case we put it in a larger enclosure that could hold an internal RAID, and installed an Intel NIC for the high speed network.

[Frank Wylie]

From what I understand, the software is locked to the CPU by an algorithm that computes a unique identifier based on some fixed value in the CPU.

Even if you manage to somehow copy the software, it will only run on the original CPU upon which it was installed.  I was told by one owner that If your CPU dies, then their usual solution is to install a completely new computer rather than just swap out components.

Take it for what it's worth; hearsay...

[Dan Baxter]

I don't know why they bother locking it to the computer, when it's locked to the scanner anyway. You cannot plug your host computer into a different LG and expect it to work - it won't, they're all individually licenced and locked to their own host software/computer. This is to prevent people from getting free upgrades to the host software without paying for the monthly support contract (everyone gets their own individual version of the host software I might add - you don't download it from a central repository and enter a licence key no no no it's compiled for each separate LG scanner).

But yes it's normal that scanners have host computers that are locked. The problem is when you have some Windows XP computer or whatever and you cannot upgrade it because the company now only provides very limited support or it doesn't exist anymore, and the software is copy-protected and cannot be transferred to a newer computer.

That said, they run on Windows 10 so it's not a problem at the present, and remember that DCS and Arri both run their scanner software on Linux not Windows, so the fact it runs on Windows instead of Linux is one of the many selling points for them.

[Perry Paolantonio]

9 hours ago, Dan Baxter said:

 (everyone gets their own individual version of the host software I might add - you don't download it from a central repository and enter a licence key no no no it's compiled for each separate LG scanner).

This is incorrect. Every 2 months they release updates. We all get the same installer download, it's not specific to the user. There are some things that Lasergraphics has done that are specific to certain installations, but that has nothing to do with the compiled app, it's in config files. 

[Dan Baxter]

Can I just ask - how do you know that you're getting the same installer download as another user? Specifically, have you ever tried to install the software that a different user downloaded and did it work or not?

Updates every 2 months though is impressive.

Yes I know about the config files, it's weird they don't just use the registry like any other app.

Other thing I can say is you're not forced to use the latest version. So if the latest version does something you don't like you can just revert to an earlier version without a problem.

[Perry Paolantonio]

35 minutes ago, Dan Baxter said:

Can I just ask - how do you know that you're getting the same installer download as another user? Specifically, have you ever tried to install the software that a different user downloaded and did it work or not?

They send an email to a mailing list with a plain text download link. The link has a generic path to a folder on their server. The file name on the installer has nothing identifying it as being specific to our machine, just the build number (e.g.: lg_7_3_370_6836.exe - 7.3.370 is the version, 6836 is the buidl number). @Robert Houllahan has two Lasergraphics scanners and could tell us if that one link works for both machines. I'm positive it does. 

Editing the registry is a nightmare, and too easy for a user to accidentally mess something up. From a software development standpoint it's easier to manage an XML file and much less likely to accidentally lead to something terrible happening. I took a cursory look in the registry and found nothing related to lasergraphics or scanstation. 

I have never heard about the Lasergraphics software being linked to a CPU. I suppose that's possible but I'm not sure why they would bother. Now, the computer that you use is very specific because it's tuned for their software. That means the motherboard and CPU are chosen by them, and we have asked in the past about building our own machine. They said it was possible but they wouldn't support it. Minor changes in CPUs can have big consequences when dealing with things as timing-specific as a scanner that can run at these speeds.

They give you a recovery software package (used to be a DVD, but now it's a USB stick). We've never had to use this but I assume it contains all the basic drivers and installers as shipped from the factory, as well as whatever they use to tweak settings. And there's a lot of tweaking that happens at the factory before these go out the door. I've talked at length with one of the support people, who builds the machines, about all the stuff they have to do. Theoretically you could build an identical machine and just install windows and whatever is on that USB stick, and you'd be back in business. 

You do need to have the correct licenses to use it - all the modules on the scanner (the main transport, the optical (camera) module, the sound readerd, etc, have unique serial numbers that are tied to licenses.  Those serial numbers are stored in each module and read by the software. So I couldn't put someone else's Optical module on my machine and expect it to work. 

I don't think gates are locked to a machine, however you can't just pop a gate on and go, Lasergraphics support needs to log in remotely and calibrate that gate to your machine or else it can't register frames properly. I could be wrong on this - it may be that they are locked to your machine in some way, but the license manager makes no mention of the gates at all - just the major hardware and any software options (such as HDR). We had someone inquire about renting our special formats kit (9.5/17.5/28mm) once to use on their scanstation and Lasergraphics confirmed it was possible to do that. But they'd be involved in getting it set up. 

And when we first purchased the machine they shipped a standard 16mm gate with it, not Super 16. When we got a S16 job and realized what happened, we contacted them and pointed out that they had it listed as an standard feature when we bought it. They sent us a new gate and all they needed to do was calibrate it. 

Edited March 20 by Perry Paolantonio

[Aapo Lettinen]

9 hours ago, Dan Baxter said:

 

That said, they run on Windows 10 so it's not a problem at the present, and remember that DCS and Arri both run their scanner software on Linux not Windows, so the fact it runs on Windows instead of Linux is one of the many selling points for them.

I don't see any benefit in using windows on a special use computer only meant to do one task well. Windows is most useful for stuff where you need to constantly install small 3rd party software tools and plugins and use it for multi purpose generic work.  

Mac is easier to use and Linux can be too if it is configured well. For stuff where it is possible to use virtualizing or containers one can manage pretty well with any kind of system. 

Drivers may be one reason to use windows, for example gpu easier to set up than on linux

[Perry Paolantonio]

1 minute ago, Aapo Lettinen said:

Drivers may be one reason to use windows, for example gpu easier to set up than on linux

It's also that they have been building the software on Windows since the beginning. The OS is really irrelevant. You're buying a scanner - doesn't really matter if it runs on Mac, Windows or Linux, as long as it works. What matters is stability, reliability, and ease of use/upgrading.

I'd say there's a 100% chance there aren't Mac drivers for half the hardware they're using, and that on Linux they're not nearly as widely supported as they are on Windows. In our machine there's a 20GbE NIC for the Camera, two GPUs, a CameraLink card for the optical track reader. All of these have to work with their existing software base. 

That being said, by running on Windows, it easily integrates into our SAN, and we're able to quickly and easily build up a RAID to capture to. Sure all that can be done on Linux, but it's a nightmare. And we have a dozen Linux boxes here that I administer. I am a masochist and like messing with Linux, and it's still a nightmare. It's also frighteningly easy to completely mess up a linux machine, leading to a tech support nightmare. Imagine a film archive with a tiny IT department - they don't want to have to mess with something outside of what they already know.

Windows is 100% the correct choice here. (I say as I type this on my Mac Studio).

[Robert Houllahan]

My Scan Station SSP (perzonalz) with HDR has the same build moniker (lg_7_3_349_1221) as all the Scan Stations.

The Archivist has the build as sa_7_3_289_5531 not lg

I probably need to update them soon to the latest builds with DNx

For comparison:

The Arriscan update requires cloning the CERN Scientifc Linux drive from the Sun workstation and sending it to Arri and then they send it back and remote in to finish the update.

 

 

[Daniel D. Teoli Jr.]

On 3/18/2024 at 8:52 AM, Perry Paolantonio said:

You use the computer that it comes with because it's a complex setup and they make sure it works before it leaves their factory.

The computer isn't "proprietary." It's just a Windows 10 (maybe 11 now) machine with an Intel CPU, an ASUS motherboard, off-the-shelf GPUs, etc. But the hardware they support is chosen by and tested by Lasergraphics, and it just works. Different versions of the scanner have different computer setups - our 6.5k uses a camera with an ethernet interface (20GbE I think). They provide a Mellanox NIC to connect the camera to, and it has a specific driver version that works. We prefer to use Mellanox cards for our high speed network as well, but we can't on that machine because the driver for our NIC would interfere with the one they supply for the camera. 

So you use the computer they give you, and you can make minor modifications (add a RAID card, or another NIC, or whatever). In our case we put it in a larger enclosure that could hold an internal RAID, and installed an Intel NIC for the high speed network.

Thanks Perry!

[Daniel D. Teoli Jr.]

On 3/19/2024 at 11:57 PM, Dan Baxter said:

I don't know why they bother locking it to the computer, when it's locked to the scanner anyway. You cannot plug your host computer into a different LG and expect it to work - it won't, they're all individually licenced and locked to their own host software/computer. This is to prevent people from getting free upgrades to the host software without paying for the monthly support contract (everyone gets their own individual version of the host software I might add - you don't download it from a central repository and enter a licence key no no no it's compiled for each separate LG scanner).

But yes it's normal that scanners have host computers that are locked. The problem is when you have some Windows XP computer or whatever and you cannot upgrade it because the company now only provides very limited support or it doesn't exist anymore, and the software is copy-protected and cannot be transferred to a newer computer.

That said, they run on Windows 10 so it's not a problem at the present, and remember that DCS and Arri both run their scanner software on Linux not Windows, so the fact it runs on Windows instead of Linux is one of the many selling points for them.

What do software upgrades cost if you don't get a support contract?

Once it is set up, is the scanner dependent at all on having internet access?

[Daniel D. Teoli Jr.]

On 3/20/2024 at 9:04 AM, Perry Paolantonio said:

This is incorrect. Every 2 months they release updates. We all get the same installer download, it's not specific to the user. There are some things that Lasergraphics has done that are specific to certain installations, but that has nothing to do with the compiled app, it's in config files. 

Do you need all the updates Perry? Reminds me of the forced Windows updates.  Have you found the updates worthwhile?

[Daniel D. Teoli Jr.]

On 3/20/2024 at 5:02 PM, Robert Houllahan said:

My Scan Station SSP (perzonalz) with HDR has the same build moniker (lg_7_3_349_1221) as all the Scan Stations.

The Archivist has the build as sa_7_3_289_5531 not lg

I probably need to update them soon to the latest builds with DNx

For comparison:

The Arriscan update requires cloning the CERN Scientifc Linux drive from the Sun workstation and sending it to Arri and then they send it back and remote in to finish the update.

 

 

 

Wow! That stuff is complex as hell!

I had no idea you had all these hassles with scanners. They may not be hassles to you, but they would be to me. I thought the scanners were just plug and play more or less. Too bad you can't ever get settled and just produce. It reminds me of the camera fondlers. They would always be looking for the next best camera to come out so they can finally be a star. They could not produce with what they got, they always needed something else. I'm not saying that is you, just saying something I noticed when I was on the photo forums.

It is the same with gun people. It wasn't really like that in the old days. I guess the internet helped produce all these 'addictions to progress.' You especially see it with the 'trigger nuts' that keep changing triggers for the carry guns. Never, ever satisfied. Like all they need is the perfect trigger to stay alive. I remember when Lightroom 5 was just coming out, right away they were debating about what Lightroom 6 will be like. They couldn't concentrate on what they got, always looking down the road.

Now, I'm not anti-progress. Just saying there is a certain joy in being able to concentrate on doing good work with what you got instead of always having to fool with things and constantly think about the future. And from the discussion here, you had better have a lot of computer smarts to run some of these scanners. You will need to be an IT guy to run these top end scanners.