How to Dub Non-Sync Cameras

[Justin Lovell]

how much quieter is a bolex than a k-3? (I've got plenty of use of the bolex, but never used a k-3)...

 

 

 

If you have a decent budget of 100k

1) you should be able to hire knowledable folks who can help you...

2) Use a quiet synch camera to shoot...

 

If you're out to create a special look or effect you should consult a cinematographer

And you can find a producers who can better help you manage the production...

Movies are a collaborative effort

If you surround yourself with the right people

They'll collaborate to bring about your vision.

Good Luck

[Robert Hughes]

Bolex, K-3, Filmo, Arri S - all are noisy, non-sync cameras. You can't mask the sound of one of these cameras unless you run a coffee grinder onstage. If you must do sync dialog, use an appropriate camera such as an Arri BL/SR, CP-16, Aaton or equivalent.

[Christian Blas]

Bolex, K-3, Filmo, Arri S - all are noisy, non-sync cameras. You can't mask the sound of one of these cameras unless you run a coffee grinder onstage. If you must do sync dialog, use an appropriate camera such as an Arri BL/SR, CP-16, Aaton or equivalent.

 

Alright, I get the point. So I decided NOT to use a K-3 for their is no sync motor available at this time, but there is talk of a Revolution motor that will be fitted into the K-3 giving the ability of sync-use for it, but until now...I hold another option for a camera which is a Filmo 70-HR or any Filmo model. I know as you told me it is cannot be used for sync-use, but it can when attached with a Revolution motor which I plan to use with the Filmo.

 

Since the Filmo can be used for sync-use, how can you dub sync-use cameras? What are the steps into the dubbing sync-sound movies and what equipment do you need to do this without digital equipment? (computers, mp3s, etc...)

[Andy_Alderslade]

 

Alright, I get the point. So I decided NOT to use a K-3 for their is no sync motor available at this time, but there is talk of a Revolution motor that will be fitted into the K-3 giving the ability of sync-use for it, but until now...I hold another option for a camera which is a Filmo 70-HR or any Filmo model. I know as you told me it is cannot be used for sync-use, but it can when attached with a Revolution motor which I plan to use with the Filmo.

 

Since the Filmo can be used for sync-use, how can you dub sync-use cameras? What are the steps into the dubbing sync-sound movies and what equipment do you need to do this without digital equipment? (computers, mp3s, etc...)

 

From what I understand, there may be Filmo sync motors out there, somwhere, but it doesn't stop the fact its an old camera and sounds like one, so by the time you've bought the motor for it you'll have a sync-camera thats to noisy to record sound sync with, and may by end up costing as much as an economic quiet camera like an old Eclair or CP16.

[Leo Anthony Vale]

From what I understand, there may be Filmo sync motors out there, somwhere, but it doesn't stop the fact its an old camera and sounds like one, so by the time you've bought the motor for it you'll have a sync-camera thats to noisy to record sound sync with, and may by end up costing as much as an economic quiet camera like an old Eclair or CP16.

 

---The old sync motors are AC.

 

& don't over llok that it's a NON-RELEX camera.

 

---LV

[Justin Lovell]

---The old sync motors are AC.

 

& don't over llok that it's a NON-RELEX camera.

 

---LV

 

 

Just got back some stuff I shot with my military version filmo, and it looks FANTASTIC. I was really worried about my focus, using a parallax viewing system, but it is all very sharp and crisp. (I was often rechecking my focus with the 'critcal focus finder" on the side of the camera)

[steve hyde]

Just got back some stuff I shot with my military version filmo, and it looks FANTASTIC. I was really worried about my focus, using a parallax viewing system, but it is all very sharp and crisp. (I was often rechecking my focus with the 'critcal focus finder" on the side of the camera)

 

 

Good to hear Justin. Did you xfer on your system or send it out? I'm about to take my first Filmo rolls to xfer and am looking forward to seeing the results. I've been shooting 7201 and am eager to see what the stock looks like as well.. I also plan to make a project of doing some post-sync sound on a few scenes..

 

Which lenses did you use?

 

Steve

[Justin Lovell]

Good to hear Justin. Did you xfer on your system or send it out? I'm about to take my first Filmo rolls to xfer and am looking forward to seeing the results. I've been shooting 7201 and am eager to see what the stock looks like as well.. I also plan to make a project of doing some post-sync sound on a few scenes..

 

Which lenses did you use?

 

Steve

 

I didn't send it out, and didn't xfer it. Should start xferring 16mm reversal in a couple months time. Little busy right now testing out my uncompressed 8bit super 8 transfer setup. Shot high speed ektachrome in 16mm and projected the original.

I used the original lenses that it came with:

 

dallmeyer 20mm, 2" and 1"

 

 

I did notice a little bit of jitter in the footage though, not sure if it was camera or projector

[Christian Blas]

I am still confused about dubbing film with MOS cameras (Bolex, K-3, Filmo, etc.). I am wondering if I could just put a blimp (with sound-proof glass or fabric) and start filming and recording separately. Would this work or is there an alternative. Many movies were made with MOS cameras and there was a task that was done to remove/mask the camera sound and dub voices/sounds to it later.

 

The movies are:

Bad Taste (Bolex) 1980s

El Marachi (Arriflex 16 M/16 S) 1990s

 

How was it done?

[David Mullen ASC]

If you want to be able to use the recordings you make on set, you have two issues: one is reducing camera noise to an acceptable level (requiring a blimp for an MOS camera), the second is using a crystal-sync motor so that your sync doesn't drift even after you've lined up sound & picture at the slate/clapper.

 

Of course, if your edits are quick enough, you could keep adjusting the sync to realign it.

 

Dubbing, or ADR, means playing the shot back for the actor in a quiet space (recording booth, for example), like on a monitor, and having them speak into a mic and record the dialogue as they listen to the old (unusable) recording on headphones. You have to do it a couple of times, then you have to edit the new recording to the picture and re-sync it again. It's very tedious, and if you are using professional ADR stages and dialogue editors, very expensive.

 

"El Mariachi" may have only cost $7000 to get to an offline video cut, but I heard that the studio spent something like $200,000 on post work to fix it up, including audio.

 

So the question is whether you want to able to use your on-set recording, requiring a blimp and a crystal-sync motor, or not. If it's all going to be replaced, you might not need either, although I still recommend the crystal-sync motor just so your camera speed won't be drifting, making post syncing harder.

 

Honestly, other than scenes where someone just says "hi" or some short and simple phrases now & then, I wouldn't attempt to shoot dialogue scenes with an MOS camera and post-dub everything, especially not with a bunch of 100' daylight spool loads only.

[Brian Drysdale]

Having shot films with sync sound on a Bolex, David sums up the difficulties extremely well.

 

We mostly shot the films using a Bolex inside a barney and camera noise was always an issue. I also made a blimp for the Bolex, which makes it a large camera outfit, so you need a beefy tripod. It was also very awkward to use. BTW The camera had a motor, it wasn't clockwork

 

I've also looped the dialogue and it's a time consuming business. BTW This was using 16mm mag film, so you could adjust it frame by frame to match the lips.

 

If you're doing it, using a crystal sync motor on the camera gives you more options. You can record an audio guide track using a digital recorder.

 

One possibly, once you've got the good take, is to then record clean audio by getting the actors to run through it again for clean sound. You can then use that recording and try and match up the audio to the pictures (assisted by the original noisy guide track).

 

Another alternative is to play the guide track as a series of loops to the actors in a studio and get them to match the original and record this performance.

 

However, you don't get a 100% match and unless you've got ADR, you'll have to make it sync up yourself.

 

The best thing to do before starting a big project is to shoot a test roll and find out for yourself how you can deal with the sync problems using the kit you've got. You don't want to be shooting large amounts of material only to discover that you're in the middle of some audio/sync nightmare.

 

I've also heard that it cost a large sum to sort the "El Marachi" sound in post.

[steve hyde]

Great discussion.

 

I am trying to maintain a *sporting* attitude as I plan a short subject that will be shot on a late model Bell and Howell Filmo DR - a camera with serious limitations to be sure, but also a camera that can produce excellent images when used with good lenses. My strategy is minimal dialogue and when I do have dialogue, I will stage and block in a way that places visual emphasis away from lips...

 

Another excellent film made on MOS camera's is "Sleep Always" - a really remarkable accomplishment since the film is shot on Super 8 at 18fps and dialogue heavy. It is certainly a rough dub, but I think it turned out cool..

 

Steve

[Nate Downes]

Seriously guy, look into some kind of sync camera. if you can't go Crystal with the Eclair, at least an old pilotone system like an Auricon or Kinor.

 

The blimping process is a PITA, but it can be done. In essence, you're building a giant soundproof box around the camera.

 

However, I must point out that Hitchcock recorded many of his movies with loud cameras without dubbing. He details out his tricks: use a fan blowing at the camera to muffle the sound, use a long zoom lens and put the camera as far back as possible.

 

Example, for a film I am working on, I only have loud cameras. So, most major dialog occurs in the car.... with the camera mounted outside of it using a polarizer to remove the glare from the window.

[Hal Smith]

Seriously guy, look into some kind of sync camera. if you can't go Crystal with the Eclair, at least an old pilotone system like an Auricon or Kinor.

There is a pilot-tone accessory for Beaulieu R16B's, screws into the side of the camera.

[steve hyde]

Seriously guy, look into some kind of sync camera. if you can't go Crystal with the Eclair, at least an old pilotone system like an Auricon or Kinor.

 

The blimping process is a PITA, but it can be done. In essence, you're building a giant soundproof box around the camera.

 

However, I must point out that Hitchcock recorded many of his movies with loud cameras without dubbing. He details out his tricks: use a fan blowing at the camera to muffle the sound, use a long zoom lens and put the camera as far back as possible.

 

Example, for a film I am working on, I only have loud cameras. So, most major dialog occurs in the car.... with the camera mounted outside of it using a polarizer to remove the glare from the window.

 

 

...This is great. Someone should write a book on shooting techniques for loud MOS cameras.

 

Steve