100' Super 8

[Jim Simon]

My company's first film is in development now, and principal photography is slated for October of this year. I'll be taking up both the Director's hat as well as the DP. One of my concerns is that shooting at 24 fps, I'll get less than three minutes per roll. With slates and pre-roll, that ain't much time for actual footage.

 

I understand there are Super 8 cameras that can use rolls larger than 50'. Can anyone shed some light on these cameras and their operation?

[Alessandro Machi]

My company's first film is in development now, and principal photography is slated for October of this year. I'll be taking up both the Director's hat as well as the DP. One of my concerns is that shooting at 24 fps, I'll get less than three minutes per roll. With slates and pre-roll, that ain't much time for actual footage.

 

I understand there are Super 8 cameras that can use rolls larger than 50'. Can anyone shed some light on these cameras and their operation?

 

I recently shot a super-8 short and used 18 frames per second instead of 24 frames per second, this results in an additional 50 seconds from each Super-8 film cartridge. From a practical standpoint of how easy it will be for me to make a tape to film copy it may be more complicated because I chose 18 Frames per second instead of 24, otherwise I'd recommend it for you. I like the look at 18 frames per second and the additional 50 seconds of filming time per cartridge plus the 1/3 of a stop gain in sensitivity is a bonus.

 

I don't recall if all the kinks were ever worked out of the supermag, which was supposed to allow for up to 400 feet of filming at a time. I personally think that 200 feet at a time would be adequate but other than the Beaulieu and special film orders from Wittner in Germany, I don't know if anyone else is offering anything. for extended film run time in Super-8.

 

Has anyone successfully used 18 frames per second and basically did whatever they wanted with the final edit master, either in NLE or as a high resolution videotape master? You might want to have a digital video counter made just in case you are swapping film cartridges in and out of your cameras. It's more accurate than the footage counter.

[Anthony Schilling]

The only other real option at the moment is a DS8 camera that runs 100ft daylight spools, but your limited to 2 reversal stocks. I would stick with 24fps and just work with changing carts... it's not that bad.

[Lisa Davidson]

The only other real option at the moment is a DS8 camera that runs 100ft daylight spools, but your limited to 2 reversal stocks. I would stick with 24fps and just work with changing carts... it's not that bad.

******

How much does it cost to buy film and have it reperforated? Then you could use anything you liked. I suppose you order 100' of Super 8, if it comes that way, and then have the other side perfed. (I think.) Because otherwise, you'd have to order 100' of unperforated 16mm and then have both edges done.

[Jim Simon]

I don't recall if all the kinks were ever worked out of the supermag, which was supposed to allow for up to 400 feet of filming at a time.

 

 

OK. More info on that, please. What camera models might use such a mag? Has anyone here ever used one?

 

I would stick with 24fps and just work with changing carts... it's not that bad.

 

I may have to. But there are a few scenes that run longer than a single 50' roll will cover. Thus the inquiry over longer rolls.

[Patrick Cooper]

"OK. More info on that, please. What camera models might use such a mag? Has anyone here ever used one?"

 

I believe that any super 8 camera that was designed to use the discontinued 200ft cartridges can accept the Supermag 400.

[kevin jackman]

the whole reperfing thing has been visited numerous times. it would cost 50 grand to get the machine then you have to get the unperfed film to do it with. chances are it would have to be cut down from 65mm. its not an option really worth looking at at the moment.

 

the ds8 bolex and pathe ds8 can theoretically do 400ft loads of ds8. im looking into this more myself at the moment to see if the mags can run at the ds8 speed instead of the 16mm speeds.

[Jim Simon]

...any super 8 camera that was designed to use the discontinued 200ft cartridges...

 

And those would be? (Make/Model)

 

 

I checked out the Bolex. For that price, I can probably move to 16mm.

 

The Pathe is spring loaded and probably not a good choice for shooting sync.

[Anthony Schilling]

I may have to. But there are a few scenes that run longer than a single 50' roll will cover. Thus the inquiry over longer rolls

2.5 minute scene or shot? If it's a scene, don't worry... if it's a 2.5 min shot, then thats just wierd :blink:

Edited April 9, 2007 by Anthony Schilling

[Ryan Ball]

2.5 minute scene or shot? If it's a scene, don't worry... if it's a 2.5 min shot, then thats just wierd :blink:

 

The 50ft cartridge helps you learn to be economical in your shooting, which will serve you well in other formats as well. You have to know what you want when you get on set and not just shoot a bunch of footage and try to figure it out in editing. Plus, your film will be more interesting because you can use those roloading breaks to set up and shoot from a different angle. Guys who shoot video tend to just let the camera run like they're shooting a stage play and the result is a dull movie. How many times have you watched a professional film and saw a cut that lasted a full 2.5 minutes? That's a lot of screen time.

[Patrick Cooper]

"And those would be? (Make/Model)"

 

This is not a definitive list but here are some super 8 camera models that can accept 200ft cartridges.

 

Chinon Pacific 200/8XL

Chinon Pacific 200/12XL

Elmo 230 S-XL

Elmo 240 S-XL

Nizo 6080

 

Remember that not many cameras were made to take 200 feet of film so your choice is a bit limited here.

 

There was a review of the Supermag 400 in an issue of 'Super 8 Today' some time ago.

[Terry Mester]

Hi Jim,

As Alessandro noted, 18 f/s should look as good as 24 f/s. There isn't likely a Pulldown Ratio in place for converting 18 f/s Film to 25 & 30 f/s Video. If you can find a place that can specifically programme their Telecine Machine, I can come up with a Pulldown Ratio for converting 18 f/s to both Video speeds. However, as I noted in my Thread "Converting 20 Frames / Second to Video" in the Telecine Forum, you can easily convert 20 f/s Film to 25 f/s Video with a 2:3 or preferably a 2:3:3:2 Pulldown, and to 30 f/s Video with a basic 3 Pulldown. 20 Frames / Second will give you 3 Minutes per 50 foot Cartridge.

[Alessandro Machi]

And those would be? (Make/Model)

 

The final version of sound super-8 cameras that many manufacturers

made would accomodate the 200 ft. cartridge, such as the Elmo 1012XL,

the Elmo 612XL, The Nizo 6080 and perhaps a few other Nizo four digit model

numbers, but I'm not sure if all four digit Nizo model numbers accomodate the

200 ft cartridge. Elmo also made some simpler cameras that took the 200 ft cartridges

but only had 3-1 or 4-1 zooms whereas most other 200 ft cartridge capable cameras

usually had at least a 6-1 zoom ratio. The Canon 814XLS and 1014XLS also can take

the 200 ft cartridge, as can the Beaulieu 7008. The Beaulieu 5008 might also take

the 200 footers. I think there might be some Chinon's and Minota's that take the 200

footers as well.

 

If you own a camera and there is a removeable plate on the top of the camera above

where the film cartridge is placed then your camera probably can take the 200 ft load.

But at the moment, no one is making 200 ft cartridges although there are some pre-loaded

film magazines for some of the Beaulieus but they are pre-loaded in Germany, I think???

[Jim Simon]

How many times have you watched a professional film and saw a cut that lasted a full 2.5 minutes?

 

I thank you for the directorial suggestions, but the scene itself may well run over the time available when shooting at 24fps (which I am decided on). That doesn't mean it will end up being one shot. I've already planned on three camera angles to cover the scene. All this will be edited together in post. But the scene itself is particularly dramatic, and I feel it might be better for the actors if they're allowed to just run through each take without breaks.

 

If it's economically feasible, I'd like to avoid what happened to Cameron when shooting The Abyss, where he ran out of film while shooting the scene where Mary Elizabeth Mastrontonio was being revived.

 

To the others, thank you for the model listings. If anyone has any experience working with such cameras and larger mags, please post any advice here.

[Alessandro Machi]

Hi Jim,

As Alessandro noted, 18 f/s should look as good as 24 f/s. There isn't likely a Pulldown Ratio in place for converting 18 f/s Film to 25 & 30 f/s Video. If you can find a place that can specifically programme their Telecine Machine, I can come up with a Pulldown Ratio for converting 18 f/s to both Video speeds. However, as I noted in my Thread "Converting 20 Frames / Second to Video" in the Telecine Forum, you can easily convert 20 f/s Film to 25 f/s Video with a 2:3 or preferably a 2:3:3:2 Pulldown, and to 30 f/s Video with a basic 3 Pulldown. 20 Frames / Second will give you 3 Minutes per 50 foot Cartridge.

 

Just to point out, the workflow options for 18 frames per second work appears to be much more limited if one is thinking of making a tape to film print later on.

[Robert Houllahan]

Hi

 

Our color lab head Bob Hume and I were talking about 100' super8 cartridges just yesterday. Bob said that Kodak used to make 100' loads that were in the same 50' cartridge. They managed this by putting the film on estar base. Bob said that they did not really work well because the thinner base routinely jammed in the cartridge making it more like a 30' roll than 100' maybe 50' is alright after all.

 

-Rob-

[Daniel Smith]

Hi, this is just a really quick question, nothing to do with the thread exactly but it's better than starting a new one for such a simple question.

 

I'm considering trying some super 8 out and was worried to see that Kodak were only offering 200T and 500T for colour. If I'm thinking correctly, then they are both tungsten balanced. Which means Kodak doesn?t actually do a daylight colour film in super 8 anymore.

 

Is this correct or have I messed something up? Tnx!

(And sorry for hijacking things for a few moments)

[Matthew Buick]

How about Ektachrome 100D? You can get it from pro8mm and ANDEC. :)

 

You'll love Super 8. :)

[Daniel Smith]

How about Ektachrome 100D? You can get it from pro8mm and ANDEC. :)

 

You'll love Super 8. :)

Wasn't even aware of it until now... I'm going by what's listed on kodak.co.uk

 

Shows how much I'm into super8!

 

Cheers Matt.

[Jim Simon]

Getting back on track...

 

A forum search turned up a few hits about where one might buy 200' loads, but all the posts are old, as are the links in them.

 

Is anyone familiar with where 200' loads can currently be purchased? Anywhere in the US maybe?

[Alessandro Machi]

Hi, this is just a really quick question, nothing to do with the thread exactly but it's better than starting a new one for such a simple question.

 

I'm considering trying some super 8 out and was worried to see that Kodak were only offering 200T and 500T for colour. If I'm thinking correctly, then they are both tungsten balanced. Which means Kodak doesn?t actually do a daylight colour film in super 8 anymore.

 

Is this correct or have I messed something up? Tnx!

(And sorry for hijacking things for a few moments)

 

You use an 85 filter which effectively makes the film a 125 ASA, or 100 ASA if you want to slightly overexpose it, which is usually a good thing to do. The super-8 Negative stocks do incredibly great work in high contrast scenes, and the grain of the 200T is very very fine.

[Leo Anthony Vale]

Getting back on track...

 

A forum search turned up a few hits about where one might buy 200' loads, but all the posts are old, as are the links in them.

 

Is anyone familiar with where 200' loads can currently be purchased? Anywhere in the US maybe?

 

I think 200' loads were all mag striped. Thus were discontinued ages ago. Damn that EPA!

[Brian Dzyak]

Years and years ago, I shot a feature using what I believe was a Beaulieu 6008s. (I found a picture of one here : http://www.mondofoto.com/cameras/beaulieu_6008S-MD_0a.jpg )

 

It has a removable top lid where the "mag" portion of the cartridge would sit. The bottom half of the "mag" was the traditional square that holds Super 8 50' loads. Those must have been 200' loads we were using.

 

We bought the camera and accessories from Super 8 Sound in Burbank. This was back in 1991, so I don't know if they are around anymore.

 

Our experience with the camera and the loads was okay. Nothing negative to report as I recall. Having the extra film helps move the day along and didn't put pressure on us to keep takes too short. I think that overall, you wind up saving money insteading of having to reload and waste a shortend because you can't fit another take on the shorter load.

 

Of course if I was doing that same film today, I'd likely NOT go that route for a number of reasons. The negatives of shooting Super 8 (at the time anyway) were

 

- lack of adequate local technical support where we were shooting ...we had to ship all the stock to California from Ohio for processing...

 

- adequate telecine wasn't available to us at the time....

 

- the latitude of the Kodachrome 40 stock was too tight for our limited lighting/grip resources to manage....and my lack of experience at the time couldn't make up for the parameters...I could probably manage it far better today, but not back then...

 

- the camera, while claiming to be crystal synced, clearly had issues staying put at 24fps. We had significant problems in post trying to fix that. The problem became very pronounced when I would switch to a Steadicam Jr. mode where the camera got power from an alternate battery source (not the main front handle battery)...

 

- the camera was relatively loud...

 

- unrated to the camera directly, but I should have used a much larger and better fluid head. I've found that the smaller the camera, the MORE you need a solid head, unlike the crap that is usually sold with consumer level cameras.....

 

 

Doing that same project today I wouldn't hesitate to find the money to shoot with a 1080 camera and then scan the final cut onto filmstock. At that level, with those limited resources, struggling with the technology is the last thing someone needs to be doing. I'm all for doing the best with what you have while striving for the best you can accomplish within the parameters. While is can look nice if done right, Super 8 proved to be a bit too difficult to use on a large scale from production to post. Maybe something shorter and less ambitious, but not a feature again.

 

Hope that helps a little. Good luck!

 

I think 200' loads were all mag striped. Thus were discontinued ages ago. Damn that EPA!

 

 

I don't believe that our 200' loads were striped. We used a separate UHER recorder for sound and I'm pretty sure that the filmstock itself was just that. I don't know how Super 8 Sound put the mags together, but I think they cut down 35mm stock to fill them. I seem to recall them offering a service where you could take in your own stock (presumably 35mm shortends) and they'd cut it for you, thus saving you some money. Maybe Kodak offered striped stock from their own factory?

[Leo Anthony Vale]

I don't believe that our 200' loads were striped. We used a separate UHER recorder for sound and I'm pretty sure that the filmstock itself was just that. I don't know how Super 8 Sound put the mags together, but I think they cut down 35mm stock to fill them. I seem to recall them offering a service where you could take in your own stock (presumably 35mm shortends) and they'd cut it for you, thus saving you some money. Maybe Kodak offered striped stock from their own factory?

 

Here is the Kodak announcment about the discontinuing of Mag stripe S8 which lists the then availiable stocks from Kodak.

 

http://web.archive.org/web/20041208145356/...g.com/kodak.htm

 

Yours was a third party reload.

& only sound cameras will take the 200' cart.

[Matthew Buick]

Wasn't even aware of it until now... I'm going by what's listed on kodak.co.uk

 

Kodak (rather stupidly) doesn't package 100D in Super 8 carts, they offer:

 

Ektachrome 64T

 

Plus-X

 

Tri-X

 

Vision 200T

 

Vision 500T

 

 

Not a great line-up, but it's something.