Sync Sound

[Rick Palidwor]

So no one else has any experience shooting sound with a good Super 8 camera that hasn't been crystal sync modified?

 

I have. I say go for it, but try the following to increase your success:

1. Shoot 24 fps.

2. Keep your takes short

3. Do a tail slate as well as the head slate so you can measure speed aberations easily.

 

I know some people are going to disagree with me but I say crystal sync shooting is over-rated, because the odds of getting good location sound is pretty slim, and you are likely going to ADR and foley all your sound. Therefore, even if your location sound was in perfect sync, poorly done ADR and foley will leave it all out of sync anyway.

 

Of course good sync on your location sound will be a better guide for your ADR and foley, but at the end of the day it's the ADR and foley that will end up in the movie and even if your guide track was not perfect sync you can tighten up the ADR and foley in digital editing and, if it was done well, no one would ever know you shot with a non-sync camera.

 

My two cents.

 

Rick

Edited April 17, 2007 by Rick Palidwor

[Jim Simon]

Thanks Rick.

 

I will be shooting at 24fps.

 

My takes are often determined by the script, and some will unavoidably be longer than others. I have another post going about acquiring refilled 200' carts because the 50' carts may not hold hold some of the scenes.

 

A tail slate is something I hadn't thought of. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

For this project, ADR really is impractical. So live dialog will end up in the final cut. May I ask, what cameras have you used, and how far off was the sync when editing?

[Rick Palidwor]

50' carts may not hold hold some of the scenes.

 

Super 8 may not be the best choice then. Unless - and I haven't seen your script - you know you will not use more than 2:30 uncut in the final cut in which case you can cut the scene into parts. VERY LIKELY.

 

For this project, ADR really is impractical.

 

Getting good consistent dialogue on location may be MORE impractical than ADR. I realize you might have a situation with a lot of improvisation, maybe with a lot of overlap in the dialogue in an uncontrolled environment - the worse case scenario X 3!! As a general rule try two things:

Record your rehearsals.

Record the actors performing the same scene immediately after the camera take without the cameras rolling and with the mics better-positioned.

You'd be surprised how much of this "wild ADR" is usable later.

 

Next consider covering the scene with more than 1 camera - this way no one has to recreate their performance - covering the audio with whatever is required.

 

what cameras have you used, and how far off was the sync when editing?

 

I think the camera is less important than the condition it's in, the batteries inside and all the other variables that can affect "wild" cameras.

 

We had a situation in our super 8 feature, Sleep Always, where we were faced with a 15 minute conversation, completely improvised between two "non-actors". Our actors were well prepped in what the scene was about - and we recorded the reherasals: why not? - but we wanted to capture one genuine conversation, so we ran two cameras, a Canon 814XLS on him and a Nikon R10 on her - and we had one mic/recorder between them - to capture ONE audio event, since we assumed ADR was impractical. And it all worked out reasonabley well - the 15 minute conversation was later cut into many smaller scenes - and when we were lucky enough to land a professional (and Oscar winning!) sound mixer he said "I'll do your sound if you re-record all the dialogue" because try as we might, it really wasn't good enough, to meet professional muster.

 

In general we used a bit of our location sound, a bit of on-set wild ADR, a bit of our DIY ADR done later, and finally some professional ADR to get the things we couldn't get on our own.

 

Welcome to dialogue movie-making.

Rick

[Pavan Deep]

I have always recorded sound wild and synced up in the edit. The camera I use for sound work is the Braun Nizo 6080, it is very, very quiet and and ideal for filming dialogue. I am filming another short in May which is a 8 minute scripted film, each shot will be around 6-7 seconds. I know my camera will stay in sync for about 5 seconds, though if I shoot at 25 seconds the cameras speed is much more constant. I also find it good to keep a picture and sound log on paper, this is a must in the edit.

 

Pav

[Jim Simon]

Thanks a lot guys.

 

I have to say I'm surprised that sound cameras will hold their speed for such short times. I really didn't expect it to be an issue with less than three minutes filming time per cart. Principal photography is tentatively scheduled for October. I think I should probably budget for a crystal mod.

[Rick Palidwor]

Thanks a lot guys.

 

I have to say I'm surprised that sound cameras will hold their speed for such short times. I really didn't expect it to be an issue with less than three minutes filming time per cart. Principal photography is tentatively scheduled for October. I think I should probably budget for a crystal mod.

 

Shoot a test cart and see how long YOUR camera holds sync. They all have quirks. Maybe you have good quirks.

Rick

[Leo Anthony Vale]

I suppose it's a matter of viewpoint. I thought $500 to $700 for a 20 year old, used Super 8 camera was excessive. Making it work right (which I still believe Canon should have done in the factory, like Beaulieu did) for an additional $500 ain't no chump change for me.

 

Those cameras were made for home movies.

Any post production would have consisted of watching the single system striped reversal original on a hand cranked viewer with sound played back on a squawk box. the film would be physicaly cut and spliced together, usualy with mylar tape. A lot of 16mm was edited the same way back then.

 

That mag stripe was very narow.

 

Crystal sync is used on DC motors, projectors normaly use AC motors.

 

Your expectations are for a situation that did not exist.

[Douglas Hunter]

Shoot a test cart and see how long YOUR camera holds sync. They all have quirks. Maybe you have good quirks.

Rick

 

Its my experience that the same camera is not always consistent in how it holds sync from one day to the next, one cart to the next. I think learning a camera's quirks is more about averages.

[Jim Simon]

Those cameras were made for home movies.

 

I don't know about that. The feature set indicates that the manufacturers saw a more professional market than just "home movies" for cameras such as the Canon 1014 XL-S, the Nizo 6080, and the Beaulieu 6008 and up.

 

Besides, some of the Beaulieu's in this class did come with crystal sync out of the factory. I just wish they all had.

[Douglas Hunter]

I don't know about that. The feature set indicates that the manufacturers saw a more professional market than just "home movies" for cameras such as the Canon 1014 XL-S, the Nizo 6080, and the Beaulieu 6008 and up.

 

Besides, some of the Beaulieu's in this class did come with crystal sync out of the factory. I just wish they all had.

 

 

well yes and no. The features that are useful on a professional set are things like having a choice in lenses, a big bright view finder, mags, video tap, rods, matte box, follow focus etc. The Canon and Nizo are clearly hobby cameras their "professional" features are really aimed at a certain type of amature. On the yes side, the Beaulieu line does have C-mount lenses and crystal control but they cameras are LOUD, so its hard to shoot sync with them.

[Jim Simon]

Thank you Douglas. My viewpoint remains unchanged, however. I still feel that all Super 8 sound equipment should have had crystal sync built in, right from the factory, most especially those offered to the "amateur" filmmaker (as opposed to the "home movie" maker.)

 

People can argue that if they like, but since it's gonna cost me $500 to correct the problem, it's unlikely my mind will be swayed.

[Bruce Taylor]

well yes and no. The features that are useful on a professional set are things like having a choice in lenses, a big bright view finder, mags, video tap, rods, matte box, follow focus etc. The Canon and Nizo are clearly hobby cameras their "professional" features are really aimed at a certain type of amature.

 

They all had their quirks, the high end S8 cameras were much like the "prosumer" video cameras of today in their time. I shot a lot of film in my Canon 1014 xls, and it did have a big, bright viewfinder, and with a simple homemade barney I had no camera noise problems when shooting with sound. But remember at the time video taps weren't even used on most professional productions, and follow focus isn't that useful when 25mm is considered telephoto. Single system mag sound worked pretty well for the time, but it is long gone now. Using S8 today has a lot of limitations, if it doesn't fit into what you need for your film, use equipment that does, or be willing to work around the difficulties S8 will present. Good luck!

[Terry Mester]

Its my experience that the same camera is not always consistent in how it holds sync from one day to the next, one cart to the next. I think learning a camera's quirks is more about averages.

Douglas, have you always used DURACELL Batteries? I've never found any other brand compare to Duracell. Any type of rechargeable batteries are junk -- especially from 20 years ago. Additionally, if you use the 'Electric Zoom', you will slow down the speed of the Cartridge Motor -- screwing up sound syncing!

 

Jim, another suggestion I would make is to look into the Lens with a Flashlight to see if there are any scratches on the internal Pink Filter. They call it a UV Filter, but it actually serves the purpose of reducing the excess Blue Light you can experience on a cloudy or overcast day outside. If you can see any scratches, then just insert a screw on top to push out the Filter. I had to do this on my Camera due to scratches.

[Alessandro Machi]

I suppose it's a matter of viewpoint. I thought $500 to $700 for a 20 year old, used Super 8 camera was excessive. Making it work right (which I still believe Canon should have done in the factory, like Beaulieu did) for an additional $500 ain't no chump change for me.

 

If anything it's the Canon cameras that have been the real workhorses over the years and they cost about 4-5 times less than what Pro-8mm was selling the beaulieus for back in the 80's and 90's.

[Mark Dunn]

Douglas, have you always used DURACELL Batteries? I've never found any other brand compare to Duracell. Any type of rechargeable batteries are junk -- especially from 20 years ago. Additionally, if you use the 'Electric Zoom', you will slow down the speed of the Cartridge Motor -- screwing up sound syncing!

 

Jim, another suggestion I would make is to look into the Lens with a Flashlight to see if there are any scratches on the internal Pink Filter. They call it a UV Filter, but it actually serves the purpose of reducing the excess Blue Light you can experience on a cloudy or overcast day outside. If you can see any scratches, then just insert a screw on top to push out the Filter. I had to do this on my Camera due to scratches.

 

 

Nickel metal hydride batteries are the equal of alkalines now.

I'd be surprised if there were a Super-8 camera susceptible to slow running when the power zoom is used. Surely the motors are governed?

Are you sure you're not confusing this with the 85A daylight correction filter? That's the one which is removable via the movie light bracket screw. But removing it will not do you any favours when shooting tungsten film in daylight. I don't know if the blue cast could be removed in post.

[Terry Mester]

Nickel metal hydride batteries are the equal of alkalines now.

I dunno Mark. Have you ever put these rechargeables to the test with Duracell? Try a test using new Duracells and your recharged brand in the same Flashlight, and let us know how long each lasts.

I'd be surprised if there were a Super-8 camera susceptible to slow running when the power zoom is used. Surely the motors are governed?

With no film in your Camera, turn it on and use the Electric Zoom. You'll notice the "sound" of the Cartridge Motor changing. This means that the speed of the Motor has changed. I noticed this "sound" change even when using a Transformer (from line electricity) for the power supply. The only way for the Cartridge Motor to not be affected by the Electric Zoom is if the Zoom uses a separate Battery circuit for its power. My Camera uses 4.5 Volts for the Motor, but the Zoom drain might not be as noticeable with a 6 Volt Camera. Since it's a silent Camera, this power drain would not have been a concern with manufacturers. With a sound Camera, synchronization is physically implanted on the Film.

Are you sure you're not confusing this with the 85A daylight correction filter? That's the one which is removable via the movie light bracket screw. But removing it will not do you any favours when shooting tungsten film in daylight. I don't know if the blue cast could be removed in post.

This is true, but blue tinge is considerably preferable to scratches. My Filter is quite badly scratched which is confusing since it would have come scratched right from the factory. Considering that it was made in Japan, this is surprising.

[Rick Palidwor]

blue tinge is considerably preferable to scratches. My Filter is quite badly scratched which is confusing since it would have come scratched right from the factory. Considering that it was made in Japan, this is surprising.

 

It's always best to consider using an external filter over the internal one, which is at least 25 years old, and since the smallest flaws will be amplified. Internal filter is also invariably an 85A and the recommended filter is an 85B - another reason to ignore the one that came from the factory and buy an external.

Rick

[Terry Mester]

With no film in your Camera, turn it on and use the Electric Zoom. You'll notice the "sound" of the Cartridge Motor changing. This means that the speed of the Motor has changed. I noticed this "sound" change even when using a Transformer (from line electricity) for the power supply. The only way for the Cartridge Motor to not be affected by the Electric Zoom is if the Zoom uses a separate Battery circuit for its power. My Camera uses 4.5 Volts for the Motor, but the Zoom drain might not be as noticeable with a 6 Volt Camera. Since it's a silent Camera, this power drain would not have been a concern with manufacturers. With a sound Camera, synchronization is physically implanted on the Film.

 

I forgot to mention the other method I used to determine the problem with the Electric Zoom slowing down the Cartridge Motor. With no Cart inside and and the Door open, turn on the Camera and watch the Clutch turning as you use the Electric Zoom. You will be able to see the Clutch slowing down and returning to normal speed as you turn the Zoom on and off. It doesn't matter if the Camera uses 3 or 4 Batteries because with Batteries "in series" the Voltage is added together, but the Amperage output remains the same as one Battery. Batteries "in parallel" maintain the same Voltage, but the Amperage is then added up. The Amperage from one Battery cannot provide enough juice for both the Cartridge Motor and the Electric Zoom Motor. If you're recording Sound, do not use the Electric Zoom!