Mark Williams Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 (edited) If I go by your own statement here... then how do you know you can trust any camera company to support your camera after purchase... Well thats the risk people will take. I didnt say it was the right or the best way. However the hard cold facts of business is all about Price. I don't like it anymore than anyone else. Its just an annoying reality that this will always happen. As for the red, people will say if it goes wrong get another or pay a premium to red to back up the camera. Edited April 21, 2007 by Mark Williams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander Joyce Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 (edited) Quality of service? Yes a nice way to think. BUT this is the real world. Quality of service. Loyalty, all expendable. We get royaly screwed every day as consumers, so yeah perhaps all that stuff isn't present in todays society, but when I buy a piece of equipment that I rely on to put food on the table I want that piece of equipment to work like nothing has ever worked before and if it doesn't I want whoever sold it to me to drag themselves to the top of the Himalaya's if that's what it takes to bring me a replacement piece. There isnt much else is there apart from perhaps a backup camera and the red will have no moving parts just a sensor to wear out and will be more robust than all previous equipment. Perhaps no moving parts, but you are in digital camera world now and it has something much worse inside it. Electronics! Seriously though, things break down. No matter what. It doesn't take any moving parts to cause problems for equipment. Things just for no apparent reason decide they don't want to work for you anymore. I simply love this very reassuring answer from someone on the Red page to this exact issue. "It will be supported like a professional camera. Fear not" I guess it's more like "We have no clue just yet,but we'll figure something out". http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1860 Edited April 21, 2007 by Alexander Joyce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Drysdale Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 Quality of service? Yes a nice way to think. BUT this is the real world. Quality of service. Loyalty, all expendable. Business takes no prisoners I'm afraid. If follow focus is readily available off the shelf people will not rent the red they will buy it and they will buy backup equipment like follow focus or hard drives. There isnt much else is there apart from perhaps a backup camera and the red will have no moving parts just a sensor to wear out and will be more robust than all previous equipment. Of course again just my opinion. In this industry quality of service is important. It's part of the creative process and you use suppliers you can rely on not because they're just the cheapest. There's a balance to be struck: more expensive cameras do require servicing and you don't want them to be out of action for weeks at a time. If people have to rent a replacement camera for long periods because the camera's supplier hasn't their act together word will quickly get out. As you say business takes no prisoners, and people don't want to paying out unnesscery rental costs because the camera supplier hasn't put a support network in place. Professionals using prosumer cameras are just as demanding in this regard as the people using the high end gear. The robustness on a long remains to be proven. It should be reliable, but that isn't always the case. Recently, the new F22 Rapter had to have software upgrades because systems crashed the first time it crossed the international date line. The fighter had to follow the in-flight refueling aircraft back, because it's own Nav system had crashed. Problems can come up at anytime. Quite a lot of productions don't buy gear for various reasons. It ties up capital for a start: the cash flow on a production can be a nightmare, so producers don't want funds tied up in equipment rather than paying the crew and other outgoings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin Greenwalt Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 I've been called "disrespectful" by Jannard for having the temerity, the unmitigated temerity, to require him to back up some of his more grandiose claims. Phil Oh give me a break. I would have accepted skepticism a year go (I was skeptical) I would have accepted skepticism 6 months ago (I was optimistic) I would have accepted sketpticism a month ago (I was hopeful) but after the NAB screening. After they proved they had a 4k sensor with 11.whatever stops of latitude and that it could record to a portable HDD using a REDCode workflow and was at least capable of producing good imagery the discussion over whether it is real and whether or not it's a quality product is over. I've been approaching the RED product since its announcement with skepticism, doubt and a demand for tangible proof of claims from the start and yet somehow I've never gotten into a shouting match or open war with Jim Jannard. Perhaps it was because I didn't jump to conclusions like "Because I don't have proof it's not real." I reached the in my opinion correct position of optimistic agnosticism in relation to his claims. And then we started getting footage. It's been a year. And all of Jim's grandiose claims were true. Did we have to believe he would achieve them? No because technically he hadn't even accomplished any of them when he started claiming what they would achieve. There was no sensor to back it up initially, a million things could have gone wrong but they didn't. IF Sony (and I'm speculating here) came in and started claiming the footage was faked forged or somehow cheated I would have kicked them out myself. Simply put we don't know. Idle speculation whether it be that they were Covert North Korean Film Agents or that they "Just wanted some proof". Is rediculous on both sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Williams Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 In this industry quality of service is important. It's part of the creative process and you use suppliers you can rely on not because they're just the cheapest. There's a balance to be struck: more expensive cameras do require servicing and you don't want them to be out of action for weeks at a time. If people have to rent a replacement camera for long periods because the camera's supplier hasn't their act together word will quickly get out. As you say business takes no prisoners, and people don't want to paying out unnesscery rental costs because the camera supplier hasn't put a support network in place. Professionals using prosumer cameras are just as demanding in this regard as the people using the high end gear. The robustness on a long remains to be proven. It should be reliable, but that isn't always the case. Recently, the new F22 Rapter had to have software upgrades because systems crashed the first time it crossed the international date line. The fighter had to follow the in-flight refueling aircraft back, because it's own Nav system had crashed. Problems can come up at anytime. Quite a lot of productions don't buy gear for various reasons. It ties up capital for a start: the cash flow on a production can be a nightmare, so producers don't want funds tied up in equipment rather than paying the crew and other outgoings. Well at the price being charged for the red many studios will buy backup ones. My opinion is the red will be more reliable than any previous camera purely down to its easier construction. For example just one chip instead of three the recording part being modular and easily /cheaply replaceable. BUT If I had millions riding on a production. I would have three reds for every camera I needed and sell them off at the end of the production. It only took me a split second to work that one out. Im sure savvy conscious producers will be even quicker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander Joyce Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 BUT If I had millions riding on a production. I would have three reds for every camera I needed and sell them off at the end of the production. Thing is the $17,500 for the camera body only really gets you that. Once you start looking around for all the other things you need. Lenses, mattebox,support, follow focus, sticks, head, monitors, and so on the approx. $80,000(mid-point between an F900R and an F23 ie.) or whatever between the Red and some other camera is going to matter less because it's going to cost you a few hundred thousand $$$ to get one complete camera anyways.. As far as buying and then selling cameras again. Who could be bothered with the hassle of having to sell all that gear again after each production? Unless the person who did it got to keep the cash I'm betting no one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Drysdale Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 BUT If I had millions riding on a production. I would have three reds for every camera I needed and sell them off at the end of the production. Try telling the production manager or line producer that if the funding's tight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Stephen Williams Posted April 21, 2007 Premium Member Share Posted April 21, 2007 Try telling the production manager or line producer that if the funding's tight. Hi Brian, Thats why renting kit has always been the norm since Panavision bought the Mitchells from studios in the 1960's. Stephen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Williams Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 Hi Brian, Thats why renting kit has always been the norm since Panavision bought the Mitchells from studios in the 1960's. Stephen Just wondered how much would it cost to rent a Panavision set up for say three months filming? Try telling the production manager or line producer that if the funding's tight. Well three reds would cost $51000 dollars at todays prices. Im sure a discount would be worked out for bulk buying and of course would really be a last resort to having in place a very good back up service already promised by red. The lenses are not that dear even I own some Mark 1 primes. Now even if you went the whole secure way and bought three reds its quite likely two of them would never have been used and could be sold for possibly $12000 dollars each minimum. How does that compare to renting a profesional set up? But my guess is for many cheaper productions they will just buy one camera and take the risk or the service offer. In fact with the abilty to purchase backup cameras its never been easier for production to make sure the camera will not cause problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander Joyce Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 http://www.panavision.co.nz/Main/rentals.asp?cat=PANSYNC Those prices are in $NZ, so you want to divide that by 0.75. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Stephen Williams Posted April 21, 2007 Premium Member Share Posted April 21, 2007 http://www.panavision.co.nz/Main/rentals.asp?cat=PANSYNC Those prices are in $NZ, so you want to divide that by 0.75. Hi, Speak with Panavision direct, nobody pays anything like list in any case. Stephen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Williams Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 Hi, Speak with Panavision direct, nobody pays anything like list in any case. Stephen Gasp! Guess they will lose out big time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Stephen Williams Posted April 21, 2007 Premium Member Share Posted April 21, 2007 Gasp! Guess they will lose out big time! Hi Mark, They have the biggest inventry of cameras + lenses worldwide. 300 + Cinealtas, don't you think they will be able to afford Reds for their rental kit? Stephen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Williams Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 (edited) Hi Mark, They have the biggest inventry of cameras + lenses worldwide. 300 + Cinealtas, don't you think they will be able to afford Reds for their rental kit? Stephen Yes but why rent? Also all that equipment that will become museum pieces. If they do rent reds they certainly won't make the money their used to. Also red will undoubtably rent the cameras themselves and will choose their own agents. Not an option really is it? Edited April 21, 2007 by Mark Williams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Stephen Williams Posted April 21, 2007 Premium Member Share Posted April 21, 2007 Yes but why rent? Also all that equipment that will become museum pieces. If they do rent reds they certainly won't make the money their used to. Also red will undoubtably rent the cameras themselves and will choose their own agents. Not an option really is it? Hi Mark, Lenses, Tripods, follow focus units LIGHTING, thats where the money is made! Not sure it would be good for Red's business to become a rental house, then they are competing with the people they sold to! Not nice at all! Stephen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander Joyce Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 Yes but why rent? Also all that equipment that will become museum pieces If they do rent reds they certainly won't make the money their used to. Also red will undoubtably rent the cameras themselves and will choose their own agents Not an option really is it? I'd be surprised to see them carry any Red cameras. Panavision and Sony are quite the pair and they have their own digital cinema camera anyways. The Red doesn't fit into this segment. It'll find it's place among the smaller shops and production companies where it will probably churn out some fine stuff, but this is a whole different market. The price difference won't matter because when they buy a camera it's going to be written off over quite some time anyways. I just remembered one thing when Stephen mentioned list price and that is that with the margins Sony have on a 900 even if it's listed at $70,000 you won't be paying that for the camera and Panavision certainly won't. But with Red. One isn't sure if they are even making money at $17,500. No wonder they are keen to push accessories on people. Thats probably where their margins are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Williams Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 Hi Mark, Lenses, Tripods, follow focus units LIGHTING, thats where the money is made! Not sure it would be good for Red's business to become a rental house, then they are competing with the people they sold to! Not nice at all! Stephen I think red will not worry about selling to panavision when they can cut them out and rent direct to panavisions ex customers. Not nice but then thats Business. They(Panny) will still do a sideline in lighting for a while but those heavy duty tripods and grip will become museum pieces too. Much lighter cheaper to make equipment will become available. Probably made in china. As for follow focus units there won't be a need to tailor them for each individual camera. There will be only one template neccesary. That means cheaper to make one size fits all and production on a larger scale. I'd be surprised to see them carry any Red cameras. Panavision and Sony are quite the pair and they have their own digital cinema camera anyways.The Red doesn't fit into this segment. It'll find it's place among the smaller shops and production companies where it will probably churn out some fine stuff, but this is a whole different market. The price difference won't matter because when they buy a camera it's going to be written off over quite some time anyways. I just remembered one thing when Stephen mentioned list price and that is that with the margins Sony have on a 900 even if it's listed at $70,000 you won't be paying that for the camera and Panavision certainly won't. But with Red. One isn't sure if they are even making money at $17,500. No wonder they are keen to push accessories on people. Thats probably where their margins are. My opinion is they know they will have a limited time at this even if they copyright their wavelet algorithms so they will want to make asmuch as possible I reckon their costs will be about half the retail price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander Joyce Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 (edited) I think red will not worry about selling to panavision when they can cut them out and rent direct to panavisions ex customers. You mean Panasonic's ex customers I'm sure :rolleyes: those heavy duty tripods and grip will become museum pieces too. Much lighter cheaper to make equipment will become available. Probably made in china. Those heavy duty tripods are what keep a camera on it's feet. Why would you spend $2000 on a tripod to support a $70,000-100,000+ camera system?(yes probably even Red when you factor in everything) As for follow focus units there won't be a need to tailor them for each individual camera. There will be only one template neccesary. Call Chrosziel or ARRI and ask them if their follow focus only works on one specific camera :P Edited April 21, 2007 by Alexander Joyce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Williams Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 (edited) You mean Panasonic's ex customers I'm sure :rolleyes: Congratulations I was wondering who was sooner or late going to pull me up on the old spelling take down. I didn't think it would be you though. Those heavy duty tripods are what keep a camera on it's feet. Why would you spend $2000 on a tripod to support a $70,000-100,000+ camera system?(yes probably even Red when you factor in everything) Because Red wont need Heavy duty tripods again probably a standard professional tripod will emerge for the red as for the rest they will be obsolete Call Chrosziel or ARRI and ask them if their follow focus only works on one specific camera :P Well probably part of the expense "is" it has all kinds of adjustments and really pricy little connecters. WELL not any more. One standard will replace it.. Edited April 21, 2007 by Mark Williams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary McClurg Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 (edited) Mark, a simple question... or questions... You're camera breaks... you're on a tight budget... what are you going to do if your camera company does not support the camera... Rent... Will the camera company refund you those costs... If not... then you'll you have to go back to your investors for more money... if I was an investor... gee Mark just lost some of his backend points... if not all of them... I think you make some good points but you act as if this camera is on the market... its not... You act as if Red is going to flood the market... that every camera house is just going to throw their cameras in the trash and take that big loss... I guess they could get a credit on taxs... I'm sorry its not going to happen overnight even it could... it'll take years... You think the other camera companies are just going to say hey we're happy we're going out of business... if the Red would start to flood the market... then they'll start building new cameras just as good if not better for a lower price... Oh well I got work to do in the yard... so I have to go... Edited April 21, 2007 by Gary McClurg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member David Mullen ASC Posted April 21, 2007 Premium Member Share Posted April 21, 2007 I'm not sure it's worth the effort to educate Mark Williams on typical rental house business model, let alone how tripods and follow-focus units work. I don't know what his experience is with production... but it seems sort of off-base judging from the opinions he keeps throwing out there. RED is a camera like any other camera -- you pick a fluid-head tripod in relation to the weight of the camera, but generally the operating will be smoother with a heavier fluid head. Plus the weight of a RED camera will vary by the type of lens you put on it. And there will always be some types of shots better operated on a geared head. There is no "one size fits all types of shooting situations" scenario in regards to tripod heads. I was just talking to a DP who did a shoot on a prosumer DV camera and they had to switch to the heavier O'Connor Ultimate head whenever they needed to do any slow panning shots. There is a point where the mass of the head actually helps stabilize and smooth the movement of the camera, regardless of the weight of the camera. There will be people who will buy a RED and outfit with the equivalent of an ENG-style head (like a Sachtler video head), follow-focus, mattebox, etc. and there will be people who will rent the RED and outfit it with 35mm support gear. For example, they may want to use a large 6x6 mattebox so that they have more control in setting placement of the transition line in a grad filter. They may want to use remote focus devices (especially for steadicam and remote crane work.) Whether or not Panavision buys and then rents RED cameras, other non-Panavision houses will. Clairmont Cameras had an initial order for two RED's from the beginning I believe. They are an Arri rental house but also have Varicams and F900's, modified to use all of their support gear, and they would do the same for a RED package I'm sure. The majority of feature film and television production in the U.S. uses rented cameras, so the RED camera will be integrated into that model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Williams Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 (edited) Mark, a simple question... or questions... You're camera breaks... you're on a tight budget... what are you going to do if your camera company does not support the camera... Rent... Will the camera company refund you those costs... If not... then you'll you have to go back to your investors for more money... if I was an investor... gee Mark just lost some of his backend points... if not all of them... I think you make some good points but you act as if this camera is on the market... its not... You act as if Red is going to flood the market... that every camera house is just going to throw their cameras in the trash and take that big loss... I guess they could get a credit on taxs... I'm sorry its not going to happen overnight even it could... it'll take years... You think the other camera companies are just going to say hey we're happy we're going out of business... if the Red would start to flood the market... then they'll start building new cameras just as good if not better for a lower price... Oh well I got work to do in the yard... so I have to go... Well Gary the bottom line is I was looking at a JVC because of the potentially low cost of video compared to film and enabling me to make better experimental films as a means to train for real film making. One day hopefully buying film for my arriflex if I ever get to the point I can afford to make a real film I.E Production costs grants etc. wELL Thats all gone out of the window. My arriflex just turned into a museum piece. Guess what? Here in the UK it would be just as cheap to buy the JVC with its connector for film lenses as it would to buy a red.. GUESS which option I would now take and it begins with R. To me its a "no brainer" Except to perhaps wait until China/ Japan start making copies then thats the time to buy. Edited April 21, 2007 by Mark Williams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member David Mullen ASC Posted April 21, 2007 Premium Member Share Posted April 21, 2007 You keep thinking that mass-production economics applies to cine production gear, and it doesn't. There isn't a market for thousands of cheap follow-focus devices for cine lenses, so there is little incentive to set-up a factory in China to churn them out. The RED camera will never be bought and used at the volume of consumer DV cameras. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Williams Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 I'm not sure it's worth the effort to educate Mark Williams on typical rental house business model, let alone how tripods and follow-focus units work. I don't know what his experience is with production... but it seems sort of off-base judging from the opinions he keeps throwing out there. -------------------------------------------------- Im not sure if this is directed to me or at me? ------------------------------------------------- RED is a camera like any other camera -- you pick a fluid-head tripod in relation to the weight of the camera, but generally the operating will be smoother with a heavier fluid head. Plus the weight of a RED camera will vary by the type of lens you put on it. And there will always be some types of shots better operated on a geared head. There is no "one size fits all types of shooting situations" scenario in regards to tripod heads. ----------------------------------------------------- Thats correct you pick a tripod in relation to the weight of course all profesional camera users will soon be using red only I think most users will use traditional primes not much weight variation there all though some wildlife photographers or papparazi will use longer lenses So actually for the majority there will be a one size fits all tripod probably on sale at reds HQ. ------------------------------------------------------ I was just talking to a DP who did a shoot on a prosumer DV camera and they had to switch to the heavier O'Connor Ultimate head whenever they needed to do any slow panning shots. There is a point where the mass of the head actually helps stabilize and smooth the movement of the camera, regardless of the weight of the camera. ------------------------------------------------- Yeah I agree my satchler 4x4 is best for my GL2. --------------------------------------------------- There will be people who will buy a RED and outfit with the equivalent of an ENG-style head (like a Sachtler video head), follow-focus, mattebox, etc. and there will be people who will rent the RED and outfit it with 35mm support gear. For example, they may want to use a large 6x6 mattebox so that they have more control in setting placement of the transition line in a grad filter. They may want to use remote focus devices (especially for steadicam and remote crane work.) ---------------------------------------------------- My satchler would do all of this with the red ------------------------------------------------- Whether or not Panavision buys and then rents RED cameras, other non-Panavision houses will. Clairmont Cameras had an initial order for two RED's from the beginning I believe. They are an Arri rental house but also have Varicams and F900's, modified to use all of their support gear, and they would do the same for a RED package I'm sure. ---------------------------------------------------- Im afraid all other cameras will be mostly superceded by the red Im afraid. -------------------------------------------------- The majority of feature film and television production in the U.S. uses rented cameras, so the RED camera will be integrated into that model. ------------------------------------------------------------- Well not any more Most places will buy the red because of its cheap cost. Im afraid the red will replace the lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander Joyce Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 You keep thinking that mass-production economics applies to cine production gear, and it doesn't. There isn't a market for thousands of cheap follow-focus devices for cine lenses, so there is little incentive to set-up a factory in China to churn them out. The RED camera will never be bought and used at the volume of consumer DV cameras. I think it really only applies to one little, but very vital piece in the chain? BNC plugs! And look where that got us. The life of our precious footage. All relying on a $1.50 plug. I welcome price cuts to this industry as much as anyone. I got a quote on an ARRI WRS system a few weeks ago. ?28,000. Wonder what the markup is on that little thing? However I don't want $250 follow focus units that don't follow focus and $2000 tripods with pencil legs that were cheap to make and easy to carry. That's what PA's are for anyways :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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