Tom York Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 Hi Tom, 50 plus years ago when Ampex released a video recorder. Stephen Oh yea, that's right. I forgot about that. That definitely shook things up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Salsburg Posted April 21, 2007 Author Share Posted April 21, 2007 Richard, are you sure that the process of some guy taken out of the screening room was actually done because they wanted competitor out? Maybe there was just one person taken out to talk to or someone wanted to give him some material or who knows what was meaning of this event. How far you were from this person when he was asked to follow the bouncer? Did you hear the conversation between them when they were leaving the screening room? Andrew I was only about 10ft from the whole thing. The bouncer came in, asked the guy to see his badge and when he saw it said, "You are from SONY?" The guy just sat their with a blank look. The bouncer then gestured for him to leave and he did so. It wasn't that dramatic and I really don't think it was any kind of conspiracy or anything. I was just a little startled because I know that NAB has strick guidelines about this kind of behavior. Also, I'm pretty sure that if RED just wanted to talk with him they would've waited until AFTER the screening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member David Mullen ASC Posted April 21, 2007 Premium Member Share Posted April 21, 2007 Personally, if I were the RED team, I would have enjoyed watching the Sony guy sweat during the screening rather than boot him out.... It was a circus under that tent, literally, so in the confusion, perhaps they kicked a guy out of a screening that in retrospect was unnecessary but things were happening very quickly and snap decisions were being made. Besides, ultimately some Sony, Panasonic, JVC, Arri, Aaton, etc. did watch the footage -- I know because I talked to some of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noah Kadner Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 (edited) I was at the RED screening Thursday and when I got into the screening room I was shocked to see that one of the RED bouncers came in, asked a man to see his badge, and as soon as he revealed that he was with SONY they asked him to leave. Am I wrong or isn't this highly against NAB policy? I thought this convention was supposed to be an open forum. What is RED's reasoning for this? As a student I love everything that they are doing with the industry but I have to say that I found this more than a little out of whack. That's a really funny story. I went to the Red screening wearing a Panasonic badge and even told Jim congratulations after watching the short. So I don't know you, but I must respectfully call BS on your tale. If someone did happen to get ejected during this alleged incident I highly doubt it had anything to do with being from a competing company because there is no company with a competing product as of yet. The only folks I heard were even threatened with bouncing were for trying to videotape the footage off the screen because they didn't want crappy Youtube quality video getting out there... -Noah Edited April 21, 2007 by Noah Kadner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Dan Goulder Posted April 21, 2007 Premium Member Share Posted April 21, 2007 Besides, ultimately some Sony, Panasonic, JVC, Arri, Aaton, etc. did watch the footage -- I know because I talked to some of them. If you don't mind, could you please share their impressions? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member David Mullen ASC Posted April 21, 2007 Premium Member Share Posted April 21, 2007 If you don't mind, could you please share their impressions? Thanks. They said it looked good and otherwise were a bit tight-lipped and non-committal... Most were pretty generous in saying that they were impressed at what was pulled-off in only a year of development. But they obviously weren't going to speculate as to how this would impact their products. I think they are hoping that they will be operating in different spheres of influence... Truth is that some of these other digital cine cameras are rental-only so they weren't relying on large sales orders to push their business along, or the digital cine camera is only a sideline business. So the competition with RED is a bit indirect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Williams Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 That's a really funny story. I went to the Red screening wearing a Panasonic badge and even told Jim congratulations after watching the short. So I don't know you, but I must respectfully call BS on your tale. If someone did happen to get ejected during this alleged incident I highly doubt it had anything to do with being from a competing company because there is no company with a competing product as of yet. The only folks I heard were even threatened with bouncing were for trying to videotape the footage off the screen because they didn't want crappy Youtube quality video getting out there... -Noah Hi Noah Just curious As your from panasonic whats your opinion of the effect red will have on Panasonics Business? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noah Kadner Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 Hi Noah Just curious As your from panasonic whats your opinion of the effect red will have on Panasonics Business? Hi Mark- I think Red will spur healthy competition across the industry, which gives us all something to look forward to. -Noah (And just for the record I am not 'from Panasonic.' I happen to own some of their cameras and work as a freelancer, demonstrating post-production workflows for Panasonic at NAB. They're nice people who are my friends. Same goes for the folks at Red. So, my comments are from a third party with nothing to gain other than a wider choice of equipment to shoot my own stuff on and of course, more workflows to figure out in post.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Williams Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 Hi Mark- I think Red will spur healthy competition across the industry, which gives us all something to look forward to. -Noah (And just for the record I am not 'from Panasonic.' I happen to own some of their cameras and work as a freelancer, demonstrating post-production workflows for Panasonic at NAB. They're nice people who are my friends. Same goes for the folks at Red. So, my comments are from a third party with nothing to gain other than a wider choice of equipment to shoot my own stuff on and of course, more workflows to figure out in post.) Well in the short term it will give independent film makers something to look forward too But not so panasonic sony etc. They will have to get more than their finger out to compete against this sony basher Im afraid? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary McClurg Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 (edited) I just walked by the booth... did see footage at Apple... it was pretty nice... And give me a break... of course Sony, Panasonic or any other big guy could steal it... but why... all they have to do is buy the camera and rip it apart... probabaly a lot cheaper and faster than hiring a James Bond type of guy... Beside there's tons of rumors of what chip it could be... actually one I heard was kinda of interesting... hmmm... I thought... I wonder if that could be true... because this company has made an HD camera but isn't planning on releasing it... I have my reasons why they made it... and why they're not releasing... but I'll keep that reason for myself... David... a dp I just met... thought that the footage was great... but he and his 1st AC thought that the placement of things was all over the place... in other words most camera makers put the controls in pretty much the same place and Red put them on the back where you pull the battery... He thought that they should have listen to more pros on making the camera... what are your thoughts... plus he told me he ran into you there or some other place at the show as well... Edited April 21, 2007 by Gary McClurg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Stephen Williams Posted April 21, 2007 Premium Member Share Posted April 21, 2007 Hi, Jim's comment on this thread may be of interest! http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?...amp;postcount=7 Stephen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member David Mullen ASC Posted April 21, 2007 Premium Member Share Posted April 21, 2007 Until I do a shoot with it, I can't really say much about the placement of the buttons and connectors, nor the menu system, etc. It's probably a bit late now anyway to make suggestions until there will be a new generation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom York Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 (edited) So I don't know you, but I must respectfully call BS on your tale. -Noah I guess there was an incident after all. It has been confirmed by the man himself: "We had over 25 Sony employees visit our booth with no difficulty. We let them in, even though the show rules don't require you let competitors in... then it got ugly. When it got disrespectful, we turned the last ones away." Jim http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1862 (Post #7) EDIT: Oops, didn't see Stephen's post above. Edited April 21, 2007 by Tom York Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander Joyce Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 After the F23, they'll probably come out with their own single-sensor 4K camera, load it with features, tie it into their post product lines, sell it for over $100,000... and convince the studios that it's somehow safer to use than something made by a small upstart company. And companies with deep pockets will somehow feel more comfortable overspending on something like that. Well that would be in the true Sony spirit. When you purchase this kind of equipment you are really buying more than just a camera. You want that big support network that will fly in parts and people to sort you out if you're in a tight spot. I must say I couldn't make myself buy a product where I didn't at least have a dealer at an arms length, so I think if Red wants to win over people like me they will have to at some point start building a dealer and support network. Which will in turn cost. Apple's Final Cut Pro has pretty much already done to the post world what Red could be doing to the camera world now. They brought the prices down and let people cut large budget films on a desktop system which in turn forced competitors to adapt, but it didn't kill them off. An Avid Nitris or Autodesk Smoke system is still priced at around ?100,000 and they still sell them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Phil Rhodes Posted April 21, 2007 Premium Member Share Posted April 21, 2007 Oh dear. The D word. I've been called "disrespectful" by Jannard for having the temerity, the unmitigated temerity, to require him to back up some of his more grandiose claims. I could go off on a soapbox about how nobody is automatically owed respect; that it must be earned and cannot be bought, but I think that's fairly obvious. One might reasonably speculate that the problem here is that extremely rich people get used to the obesiance of those around them and react negatively to the attitude of people who have no stake in their richness, and instead treat them like everyone else. The idea that Sony would send "spies" to Red wearing Sony badges is absolutely ridiculous. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Kelley Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 Oh dear. The D word. I've been called "disrespectful" by Jannard for having the temerity, the unmitigated temerity, to require him to back up some of his more grandiose claims. I could go off on a soapbox about how nobody is automatically owed respect; that it must be earned and cannot be bought, but I think that's fairly obvious. Phil Oh God... Not another one... Here we go again... What is it with people? Jay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noah Kadner Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 (edited) I guess there was an incident after all. It has been confirmed by the man himself:"We had over 25 Sony employees visit our booth with no difficulty. We let them in, even though the show rules don't require you let competitors in... then it got ugly. When it got disrespectful, we turned the last ones away." Jim http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1862 (Post #7) EDIT: Oops, didn't see Stephen's post above. That sounds like a reasonable explanation to me. I apologize to Richard for calling BS on his story. I also understand the situation a little better now. I had a feeling it was not that simple. The bottom line is as David and I both observed first-hand, in terms of other manufacturer's reps being admitted into the Red booth and screenings, this incident was the exception, not the rule. -Noah Edited April 21, 2007 by Noah Kadner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary McClurg Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 (edited) You want that big support network that will fly in parts and people to sort you out if you're in a tight spot.I must say I couldn't make myself buy a product where I didn't at least have a dealer at an arms length, so I think if Red wants to win over people like me they will have to at some point start building a dealer and support network. Which will in turn cost. I think really this is the key to the whole thing... which company gives the best support will be the winner in the end... On the last feature I worked on one of the follow focus gears didn't work on the B camera... Plus 8 had a new gear to me in less than 20 minutes... actually they brought out a whole new follow focus unit... That and my sells rep who works to get me the best deals that she can is the reason why I rented from them on four projects last year... 1 feature and 3 TV spots... Edited April 21, 2007 by Gary McClurg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Williams Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 I think really this is the key to the whole thing... which company gives the best support will be the winner in the end... On the last feature I worked on one of the follow focus gears didn't work... Plus 8 had a new gear to me in less than 20 minutes... That and my sells rep who works to get me the best deals that she can is the reason why I rented from them on four projects last year... 1 feature and 3 TV spots... I think peripheral equipment will come down in price as more will be sold. Follow focus gears too are overpriced and will be easy to make for the red Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Drysdale Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 (edited) I think peripheral equipment will come down in price as more will be sold. Follow focus gears too are overpriced and will be easy to make for the red I think the important point being made is the getting of back up service, not price. In filming things go wrong and you need replacement gear etc as quickly as possible. This is why producers & facilities companies etc pay the higher prices from rental companies and also equipment sales companies. You could easily lose more than the price of RED camera on quite a few productions if you lose a day's filming because you can't get a replacement camera. Edited April 21, 2007 by Brian Drysdale Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary McClurg Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 (edited) I think peripheral equipment will come down in price as more will be sold. Follow focus gears too are overpriced and will be easy to make for the red I'm not talking about the price of a follow focus unit... I'm talking about a company that will support you... I'm talking about having a company that will be there when your equipment goes down and will have a replacement there as soon as they can... Some times paying more isn't bad... that's the reason I chose Plus 8 over a dp with his own package... can he get me a new camera as quickly as a company which owns maybe 20 or more Cine Altas... I can't afford to have down time in the middle of a production... Wow how fast things work around here... Brian answered before and edited his post before I finsihed writing mine... Edited April 21, 2007 by Gary McClurg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member David Mullen ASC Posted April 21, 2007 Premium Member Share Posted April 21, 2007 Some of the hype and excitement simply comes from the fact that the RED camera is somewhat of a wild card after watching the slow development and introduction of the Dalsa and Arri-D20, so we were getting used to that pace, plus the pace of new cameras coming out of the video manufacturers, which by most standards, is pretty fast -- I can barely keep track of all the new HDV cameras hitting the market every year. So I am fascinated by how the new cameras like RED will affect the market -- it's a guessing game. There is always a certain inertia to rely on that keeps changes from being too rapid, a tendency towards the status quo, plus honestly -- film works just fine (it's just expensive) -- but now and then you have these bursts of rapid change in the industry. It's the midrange pro cameras that seem the most threatened by the RED camera -- for example, the F900/R. I'm less sure why someone would buy one for $70,000 (at least Sony dropped the price from $90,000) if the RED is a possibility, unless you had clients who demanded that you hand over a HDCAM tape at the end of the day, or wanted you to shoot in 60i. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom York Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 It looks like this topic's sister thread (or is it brother?) over at reduser got locked down. I guess they don't want people discussing this anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Williams Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 I think the important point being made is the getting of back up service, not price. In filming things go wrong and you need replacement gear etc as quickly as possible. This is why producers & facilities companies etc pay the higher prices from rental companies and also equipment sales companies. You could easily lose more than the price of RED camera on quite a few productions if you lose a day's filming because you can't get a replacement camera. Quality of service? Yes a nice way to think. BUT this is the real world. Quality of service. Loyalty, all expendable. Business takes no prisoners I'm afraid. If follow focus is readily available off the shelf people will not rent the red they will buy it and they will buy backup equipment like follow focus or hard drives. There isnt much else is there apart from perhaps a backup camera and the red will have no moving parts just a sensor to wear out and will be more robust than all previous equipment. Of course again just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary McClurg Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 Quality of service? Yes a nice way to think. BUT this is the real world. Quality of service. Loyalty, all expendable. Business takes no prisoners I'm afraid. If follow focus is readily available off the shelf people will not rent the red they will buy it and they will buy backup equipment like follow focus or hard drives. There isnt much else is there apart from perhaps a backup camera and the red will have no moving parts just a sensor to wear out and will be more robust than all previous equipment. Of course again just my opinion. If I go by your own statement here... then how do you know you can trust any camera company to support your camera after purchase... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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