Allen Achterberg Posted April 26, 2008 Share Posted April 26, 2008 If jim was smart, I think it'd be wise to make some affordable 35mm/S16mm Film scanners that support the 4k resolution, also support 4prf/3prf/ and 2/prf then He'd be making cash on both ends video AND film. if I were He, I would do it. do it jim, so I can use my 35mm camera with Solid Functioning PL mounts and get my DI done at home! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Drysdale Posted April 26, 2008 Share Posted April 26, 2008 There is already is 4k scanner made by Kinetta. http://www.kinetta.com/download/files/K4K_Brochure.pdf However this is a niche market for a manufacturer and I would doubt the economics buying one for a one off film. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allen Achterberg Posted April 26, 2008 Author Share Posted April 26, 2008 There is already is 4k scanner made by Kinetta. http://www.kinetta.com/download/files/K4K_Brochure.pdf However this is a niche market for a manufacturer and I would doubt the economics buying one for a one off film. uhh, thats pretty cool. Affordable? I'd be down. I just thought since Jims been so busy with a new Chopper, 5k camera and scarlet that while he's at it he should broaden his horizons a bit. Dip into the film thing. Shi...I bet he makes one.... yep...I'm halfway serious about this post. Not completely though. Thanks Brian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Max Jacoby Posted April 26, 2008 Premium Member Share Posted April 26, 2008 Filmscanners are a very different beast than a digital camera. For one they need a highly precise movement that runs the film through the machine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radoslav Karapetkov Posted April 26, 2008 Share Posted April 26, 2008 There was a topic at RedUser for potentially adapting a RED One camera to become a 4K film scanner. Cannot find it, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emanuel A Guedes Posted April 26, 2008 Share Posted April 26, 2008 There was a topic at RedUser for potentially adapting a RED One camera to become a 4K film scanner. Cannot find it, though. http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=460 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radoslav Karapetkov Posted April 26, 2008 Share Posted April 26, 2008 Thant's the one, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuck colburn Posted April 26, 2008 Share Posted April 26, 2008 Mitchell movements (sliding pin registration) have been used in film chains but I believe a fixed pin shuttle type movement ( Bell & Howell 2709) adapts easier to thru the gate projection. It has always been considered the best form of registration for sprockted film. And is easier to make then a Mitchell type movement. Good for about 32 or so frames per second. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Wells Posted April 26, 2008 Share Posted April 26, 2008 I can already hear the "is it really a 4K scan or is it a 3.2 / 3 / 2.8 k scan arguments...." i suggested last year you think about swapping out what is essentially a camera section of a Sony Vialta with a Red. Put a reworked Red Epic in there... (I'm at least semi-serious !) -Sam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member John Sprung Posted April 28, 2008 Premium Member Share Posted April 28, 2008 Pin registered transfer is really only necessary for effects. You don't even need an intermittent to do telecine. Everything from Spirits back to the earliest Ranks use continuous film movement, and scan one line at a time. BTW, I think Jim is smart, and will probably realize that he has plenty on his plate, and leave telecine alone. -- J.S. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Kenny Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 Red's business model seems to based in large part around making stuff cheaper and selling it in higher volumes. Because of the fairly high cost of shooting and processing film in the first place, the number of customers for a film scanner probably wouldn't be all that much higher simply because you reduced the cost of the device; reducing the cost of the device wouldn't make the end-to-end process all that much cheaper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tylerhawes Posted April 29, 2008 Share Posted April 29, 2008 The camera section is a relatively small part of a scanner or telecine's cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Keith Walters Posted April 29, 2008 Premium Member Share Posted April 29, 2008 Pin registered transfer is really only necessary for effects. You don't even need an intermittent to do telecine. Everything from Spirits back to the earliest Ranks use continuous film movement, and scan one line at a time. BTW, I think Jim is smart, and will probably realize that he has plenty on his plate, and leave telecine alone. -- J.S. As far as I am aware, all Rank machines used raster-based "flying spot" scanning with intermittent film movement. That is, a raster generated on a farly conventional CRT is focussed onto the film, and photocells record the variations in brightness, to produce a video signal. One of my regular jobs on a Rank Ursa telecine used to be to check and adjust the CRT's heater voltage :lol: Flying spot telecines had a lot of advantages. Changing the scanning to cope with different film gauges and shooting formats was very simple, and some Rank machines could duplicate the effects available from early (and very expensive) machines such as the Quantel Mirage, for negligible extra cost. Apart from this, most of the early CCD-based telecines produced terrible "plastic-ey looking" pictures. However, CRT-based telecines were simply not good enough for HDTV, which is the main reason they fell by the wayside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Keith Walters Posted April 29, 2008 Premium Member Share Posted April 29, 2008 Mitchell movements (sliding pin registration) have been used in film chains but I believe a fixed pin shuttle type movement ( Bell & Howell 2709) adapts easier to thru the gate projection. It has always been considered the best form of registration for sprockted film. And is easier to make then a Mitchell type movement. Good for about 32 or so frames per second. I wonder how practical it would be to make an illuminated pressure plate and a relay lens assembly that could turn a movie camera into a telecine :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member John Sprung Posted April 29, 2008 Premium Member Share Posted April 29, 2008 As far as I am aware, all Rank machines used raster-based "flying spot" scanning with intermittent film movement. That is, a raster generated on a farly conventional CRT is focussed onto the film, and photocells record the variations in brightness, to produce a video signal. .... However, CRT-based telecines were simply not good enough for HDTV, which is the main reason they fell by the wayside. Actually, it's stranger than that. The CRT based machines did have continuous film movement, and still do. But they couldn't just scan a single line on the tube, that would burn out the phosphor way too fast. So, what they did -- and still do -- is scan in the other direction within each frame, scanning a patch twice as high on the tube, and extracting the image from the film in the *same* direction it's traveling. They sort of chase after the frames at double speed. That's why you'd see the two squashed upside down images with the film stopped. CRT machines can be plenty good enough for HDTV. Some people prefer them. They take more TLC to keep them going, so the total cost of ownership is higher, which has made them a high end niche product. Here are the specs on the C-Reality, including continuous film movement: General Dimensions Width x height x depth 1650 x 1770 x 910mm Approximate weight 820kg Power supply Mains supply 94V - 257V Power consumption 4.5 kVA Film Transport System Film format 16mm, Super 16mm 35mm, Super 35mm Film drive Continuous motion servo, controlled to provide constant film tension (tension selectable) Film type Negatives, Intermediates, Prints Colour, Black and White Film gate 16mm : 16mm, Super 16mm 35mm : 35mm, Super 35mm (8,4,3 perf and 2 perf) Film capacity > 2000ft, 18" diameter Film frame rate 525 - 5 to 30 fps and 40 to 50 fps (to 60 fps with field per frame option) 625 - 5 to 30 fps and 33 to 50 fps 2K Data, 6-15fps, depending on interface Built in film counter 4K at 2 seconds per frame Film Imaging System Image scanning device High resolution scanning cathode ray tube assembly Image detection Large area avalanche photodiodes OLIVER system Dynamic range 0.0 to >3.3 Density range 14 bit RGB Image Functions Image control X-Y pan and zoom 360o rotation 45o X-Y skew Perspective correction Scan aspects of 4:3 and 16:9 Anamorphic squeeze Image control (Colour) Broadband 14 bit digital RGB colour channel Pre-gamma lift and gain Gamma control / S gamma Post gamma lift and gain 6 variable colour vector processing Isolation: Hue, hue width, saturation & luminance isolation Effect: Hue, saturation and luminance control 12 bit RGB aperture correction +/- 12dB 625/ 525 reference frame-store Vertical and horizontal wipes. Output blanking for letterbox formats. Outputs Serial digital 10 bit linear or log switchable 4:4:4 RGB, 4:2:2 Y.Cr.Cb 625/50, 525/60 CCIR 601/656 1080i (50/59/60) 1080p 24sF 1080p 24F 720p LVDS data port (requires optional Postware system) High speed data link (HSDL) Multi-standard scanner inclusive of C-VIP, 625/50 and 525/60, 720p, 1080i/50/60, 1080p, 24sf video operation, 4:4:4 and 4:2:2 10 bit output. 2K and 4K 14 bit scanning system. -- J.S. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Site Sponsor Robert Houllahan Posted April 29, 2008 Site Sponsor Share Posted April 29, 2008 CRT machines can be plenty good enough for HDTV. Some people prefer them. They take more TLC to keep them going, so the total cost of ownership is higher, which has made them a high end niche product. A good CRT scanner like a Millenium or DSX/C-Reality (they share the same basic chassis) or a Nova (I have not seen/used a Nova Personally) is no more or less a hi-end niche product than a Spirit HD/2K/4K or an Arriscan. I have had film I have shot on a Spirit and a DSX in the same facility and there really is not much difference in terms of sharpness or picture quality, they are different but basically equal machines. There are pin registered gate options for the field of modern CRT scanners. I have two Cintel MK3's and have retrofitted them with every possible aftermarket option I could get (from DAV, Metaspeed, etc) and with all the modern bits they are very reliable. A new HD/2K/4K machine will be as reliable as a CCD machine and total cost of ownership is within a few dollars annually. As to a bayer mask film scanner, I feel it is a good option for an inexpensive telecine replacement but probably cannot match the kind of picture quality a machine like a Arriscan or Millenium can make as they are full bandwidth RGB scanners that extract all of the potential from a film negative. -Rob- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Site Sponsor Robert Houllahan Posted April 29, 2008 Site Sponsor Share Posted April 29, 2008 One of my regular jobs on a Rank Ursa telecine used to be to check and adjust the CRT's heater voltage :lol: We have Dave Walker's (DAV now Nova) Digital Deflection systems in our MK3's have all tube parameters under complete automated computer control including heater voltage. I believe later URSA's and all new CRT machines are likewise equipped. The MK3 can actually be a lower noise machine that a ursa because allot of the systems used did not introduce as much digital switching noise into the telecine. -Rob- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Keith Walters Posted April 30, 2008 Premium Member Share Posted April 30, 2008 We have Dave Walker's (DAV now Nova) Digital Deflection systems in our MK3's have all tube parameters under complete automated computer control including heater voltage. I believe later URSA's and all new CRT machines are likewise equipped. The MK3 can actually be a lower noise machine that a ursa because allot of the systems used did not introduce as much digital switching noise into the telecine. -Rob- Is the heater voltage that important? My involvement with the machine in question was fairly minimal actually. The company who owned it had gone through a bit of a customer relations scandal where a botched scanning job was initially blamed on the supplied film footage. However the customer was able to get a near-faultless transfer on a much cheaper machine elsewhere and came back screaming for blood. The person responsible for the bungle apparently managed to avoid getting fired by claiming that the CRT heater voltage had been incorrectly set, and so after that it was decreed by those who know nowt but must be obeyed, that before any big job, the voltage must be checked. However the resident technician maintained that this was utter rot (he was probably right) and there was fear that he may not actually do the measurement, even if he claimed he did. I used to bit a bit of moonlighting there repairing monitors after hours and they asked me if I could do it when he was not there. And so I did. If I was already there I did it for free, and if I had to come in specially they paid me $50 cash, not bad for two minutes work :lol: As far as I could see, that adjustment was just to compensate for different mains voltages where the machines happened to be installed. If it was that critical, I would have thought they would have used a regulated power supply. In my experience with both CRTs and vacuum tubes generally +/- 20% variation in the heater voltage seems to have no noticeable effect. By the way, I am sure the telecine I worked on had registration pins, but perhaps that just keeps the film from weaving, rather than holding it stationary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Keith Walters Posted April 30, 2008 Premium Member Share Posted April 30, 2008 CRT machines can be plenty good enough for HDTV. Some people prefer them. They take more TLC to keep them going, so the total cost of ownership is higher, which has made them a high end niche product. Here are the specs on the C-Reality, including continuous film movement: General Dimensions Width x height x depth 1650 x 1770 x 910mm Approximate weight 820kg Power supply Mains supply 94V - 257V Power consumption 4.5 kVA... ...High speed data link (HSDL) Multi-standard scanner inclusive of C-VIP, 625/50 and 525/60, 720p, 1080i/50/60, 1080p, 24sf video operation, 4:4:4 and 4:2:2 10 bit output. 2K and 4K 14 bit scanning system. -- J.S. I stand corrected. I also see that CRT-based film printers are still holding their own, with lower cost and faster throughput. Tubes rule!! Seriously, it is nice to be able to give the fanboys at least a glimpse of the complexity of the world they think they will be conquering :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member John Brawley Posted April 30, 2008 Premium Member Share Posted April 30, 2008 Pin registered transfer is really only necessary for effects. You don't even need an intermittent to do telecine. Everything from Spirits back to the earliest Ranks use continuous film movement, and scan one line at a time. I was under the impression that the spirit was the first FULL frame ccd (and the Vialta) but other ccd chains were a single line array. ( shadow, marconi etc) jb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Site Sponsor Robert Houllahan Posted April 30, 2008 Site Sponsor Share Posted April 30, 2008 I was under the impression that the spirit was the first FULL frame ccd (and the Vialta) but other ccd chains were a single line array. ( shadow, marconi etc) jb The Spirit is a line array CCD machine, it has 4 lines, a B+W luminance, and three color lines... The Vialta is essentially a 3CCD camera with a beam splitter. I believe the Arriscan is probably the first full area CCD scanner it uses a full frame B+W CCD array with a set of R,G,B Led's that are flashed in sequence. The tube heater voltage only really matters if it is way off, mostly putting it under regulated computer control has a factor in extending it's life not in picture quality. -Rob- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Wells Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 I believe the Arriscan is probably the first full area CCD scanner it uses a full frame B+W CCD array with a set of R,G,B Led's that are flashed in sequence.-Rob- It's a CMOS and apparently same chip as the D-20 (D-21 now ?). Reads to the sprockets per Mark from Arri on CML recently. But no Bayer striping in this case are you saying ? I see one drawback to my (not necessarily practical) VialtaRed notion, vs Arriscan, how would you do the dual-scan mode like Arriscan can do.. -Sam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member John Sprung Posted April 30, 2008 Premium Member Share Posted April 30, 2008 A good CRT scanner like a Millenium or DSX/C-Reality (they share the same basic chassis) or a Nova (I have not seen/used a Nova Personally) is no more or less a hi-end niche product than a Spirit HD/2K/4K or an Arriscan. I have had film I have shot on a Spirit and a DSX in the same facility and there really is not much difference in terms of sharpness or picture quality, they are different but basically equal machines. Hmmm -- So why did the installed base here in LA flip from 100% CRT to probably well over 90% line array CCD? -- J.S. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member John Sprung Posted April 30, 2008 Premium Member Share Posted April 30, 2008 By the way, I am sure the telecine I worked on had registration pins, but perhaps that just keeps the film from weaving, rather than holding it stationary. There are optional pin registration and pulldown kits for them, which are used for composite effects work. They cost a whole bunch more, they're a little harder on the film, and you don't need them for most work, so they're nowhere near as widely used as continuous motion. -- J.S. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member John Sprung Posted April 30, 2008 Premium Member Share Posted April 30, 2008 I was under the impression that the spirit was the first FULL frame ccd Actually, Ed DiGiulio at Cinema Products had a machine based on the F-900 maybe ten years ago. -- J.S. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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