Jim Jannard Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 (edited) I dunno Jim, I've seen '19 from Kodak pushed 2 stops which it still a-ok in my book (on 35). . . . Depends, as mentioned on what one can accept and most importantly, scene content! I've seen film and digital look "noisiest," in lower contras scenes where the eye is more prone to "notice," the differences in luminance that grain and noise introduce... I'd also say that while Digital sensors are getting better, I seriously doubt they'll outperform the blanket term of "film." Will they be better than 500asa film--- some of them probably already are. But, will they be better, which is in and of itself an arbitrary term, than 50D film at the same time, probably not. That's film's biggest strength, the ability to choose speed relative to what you're shooting. Regardless of what smart things you can do with data off of a chip, the fact remains that it is still balanced for some speed and some color. With a film camera you just swap out the stock for what's appropriate in that scene as opposed to doing so electronically. The electronic method can often yield very nice results, but the more you finagle the data, the more you tend to loose and the more artifacts you're prone to introduce. Perhaps one day we'll have "field swappable sensors," where you can load a 50D sensor into a camera for that shot in the desert at noon, and then swap out to a 3200T sensor for a night exterior in a hostile location where you can't rig. But, until that day comes I wholly believe that film and digital will coexist as production formats much as they do now chosen for budgetary(sad)/physical reasons as well aesthetics. p.s. if you do invent "field swappable sensors" I request 1 free camera of the current generation for thinking it up! Adrian... all good points. But I would suggest that if you haven't shot the Alexa or M-X sensor, a digital vs. film discussion is not current. I am not saying that every aspect is there today... but many are. And I have seen what is around the corner... sensors are moving way more rapidly than you might expect. With the new sensors now being much more ND friendly... it is not hard to make your noise-free (relative to film) digital sensor act like ISO 200-2000 or ISO 25-250. With the M-X sensor and new color science... there is no drama to shooting tungsten. Something we couldn't say two years ago. We bought Ren-Mar Studios a couple of months ago and inherited several hundred tungsten lights as part of the deal. Our original idea was to convert half of them to daylight... until we saw the M-X sensor. Now we have decided to leave them all alone. Actually... almost everything I now shoot at the studios is tungsten. I guess the point is that digital is just now coming out of the early years. And progress is accelerating. Don't forget... our mission is to do film justice on its way out. Film doesn't submit to Moore's law. It will never be faster to process or cheaper. A 400' load of film will never be smaller. But it has a wonderful legacy and history based on it's capabilities. We not only acknowledge that but want to make sure the digital revolution pays homage to film. That means that 1080P or 2K is not good enough. Studios are now re-releasing 4K scans of many older classics shot on film. That can't happen with a 1080P or 2K digital camera. 4K bayer is the same measured resolution of slow speed S35 film (3.2K). 5K Bayer is a measured 4K resolution. 1080P digital doesn't come close. The best we have measured is a Sony F35 at 1.7K... about 1/4 the resolution of 4K Bayer. We believe in everything film. That includes resolution, color, DR and feel. Our mission is to continue to provide a worthy alternative to film because digital is the future. God help us if 1080P and 10 stops of DR was deemed "good enough". As for replaceable sensors... we have done the next best thing with replaceable "brains" in EPIC and Scarlet. I completely agree with you. You can have an ISO 25-250 brain. Or an ISO 200-2000 brain. And when new technology emerges, you can replace your brain without buying a new camera. If new battery technology comes out (and it will)... replace just that module. Our philosophy accepts that technology will advance and we don't think our customers need to buy a new camera every time a new recording media or capability shows up. The RED ONE (obsolescence obsolete... remember?) is the 1st camera in the world to offer a sensor upgrade. While it isn't as upgradeable as EPIC... we have offered our customers full credit in trade for an EPIC. Not sure what more we can do to make the point that we are standing behind our customers as we get more proficient at this business and technology advances. And we knew nothing 4 years ago. I have no issue with people shooting film until the last day it is produced... I have issue with people shooting 1080P as a film alternative. 1080P and 2K are not future-proof. Film is. I also believe it is the responsibility of digital camera makers to continue to improve sensors until there are no more questions about any aspect of performance. I wish it could happen in one day... but it is a process. Someone commented about us being a marketing company. We are. But we also employ over 200 engineers developing sensors and electronics for our camera program. They are RED employees. I know for sure. I sign the checks. Everything EPIC and Scarlet is being core engineered internally. That doesn't really mean anything... except we are not just a marketing company. I am quite sure that we have more dedicated resources involved in digital cinema motion capture than any other company (assuming you don't count line-skipping). Jim Edited March 30, 2010 by Jim Jannard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.