When did Colour Neg first become available in 16mm?

[John Woods]

Does anyone know when colour negative film first became available on 16mm (and perhaps what the stock was)? I had been told that it was surprisingly late, like not until the 1980s but he wasn't 100% sure.

[Charlie Peich]

Does anyone know when colour negative film first became available on 16mm (and perhaps what the stock was)? I had been told that it was surprisingly late, like not until the 1980s but he wasn't 100% sure.

 

1968 --- 7/5254

 

1976 --- 7/5247 This stock helped launched popularity of 16mm neg production and post production for printing.

 

Kodak FIlm Chronology

 

 

 

Charlie

[John Holland]

I shot with 7251 which was a 50 asa and that was 1968 7254 then came along at 100 asa which i used to push a stop .

[John Woods]

Thanks for the link. Makes sense, even with lag Canada often gets on some products I can't imagine that all of those 1970s NFB films were all shot on reversal.

[John Sprung]

We shot a lot of 7247 in the 1970's. The earlier stocks were also available in 16, but not widely used because of the large grain.

 

 

 

 

 

-- J.S.

[Leo Anthony Vale]

We shot a lot of 7247 in the 1970's. The earlier stocks were also available in 16, but not widely used because of the large grain.

 

There were also problems with dust and dirt in the labs.

 

Though 'Grey Gardens' used 7254. It has great flesh tones.

 

7254 was used in Europe, I think mostly for TV.

[John Holland]

7254 was as Leo said was used on Dramas on Tv in GB , reversal then tended be used for News . I dont why but here the labs were great with the neg and we didnt suffer with the dirt and dust that Us labs did.

[Stephen Williams]

7254 was as Leo said was used on Dramas on Tv in GB , reversal then tended be used for News . I dont why but here the labs were great with the neg and we didnt suffer with the dirt and dust that Us labs did.

 

I think Rank (Denham) had 40,000 feet a day from the BBC, large quantities help with dirt.

In Zurich 35mm is often dirty due to tiny quantities, it's processed whilst you wait, as long as you have booked processing in advance!

[James Steven Beverly]

Does anyone know when colour negative film first became available on 16mm (and perhaps what the stock was)? I had been told that it was surprisingly late, like not until the 1980s but he wasn't 100% sure.

 

 

1929

 

http://www.robbiesreels.com/1920.htm

 

"Color film becomes a reality for amateur cinematographers with the introduction of 16mm Kodacolor. Kodak bought the rights to the old Keller-Dorian process in 1925 and spent most of three years developing it. Initially the Model B Cine Kodak was the only camera in which Kodacolor could be used, but a short-lived Kodacolor version of the Model A appeared more than a year later at the end of 1929."

Edited April 26, 2011 by James Steven Beverly

[Simon Wyss]

Sorry, James, but Kodacolor was a reversal film.

 

So far I could find out Eastmancolor 7247 was available from 1951 on but soon replaced. Problem was that there were no labs equipped to process it until only towards the end of the fifties.

[Charles MacDonald]

 

"Color film becomes a reality for amateur cinematographers with the introduction of 16mm Kodacolor.

 

That early 16mm Colour was a black and white reversal emulsion coated on a lenticular base, used with filter adaptors on the camera and projector.

[Adam Hunt]

Sorry, James, but Kodacolor was a reversal film.

 

Sorry Simon, but Kodacolor was in fact negative film. The super-famous Kodachrome was a reversal film. In fact it is pretty standard practice for film manufacturers to use brand names ending in chrome to represent colour-reversal films: Kodachrome, Fujichrome, Agfachrome. And brand names ending in color to represent colour-negative films: Kodacolor, Fujicolor, Agfacolor.

 

Although, I believe Kodachrome was introduced in 1929, and Kodacolor didn't come along until 1942. I'm not sure if it was available in 16mm or even 35mm motion picture stock at that time. I know in the world of still photography it was first introduced in larger 620 roll film and didn't debut in 35mm roll film until 1958.

[Adam Hunt]

That early 16mm Colour was a black and white reversal emulsion coated on a lenticular base, used with filter adaptors on the camera and projector.

 

I think that other website mistakenly shows a box of the later available Kodacolor when it was in fact it was Kodachrome that was introduced into the amateur movie market in 1923.

 

The famous Technicolor process which was first introduced in 2-colour/2-strip and later 3-colour/3-strip in 1923 and 1932 respectively. It was never available in 16mm, only 35mm. Kodak's own site clearly states it was a colour-reversal process introduced into the amateur movie market in 1923 while 2-strip Technicolor was introduced into the pro market the same year.

 

The process you speak of above was marketed under the Kodacolor name although it was something totally different than the negative films Kodak made for decades afterward under the same Kodacolor name. It was introduced in 1928.

 

I did a little research since my last post, so it seems you were right Simon, the first Kodacolor was a reversal film but it was preceded by Kodachrome which came to 16mm a few years earlier. Although this was actually not the same as the K-12 and K-14 Kodachromes made later (K-14 being made until 2009).

Kodak's chronology of film

Wikipedia on Kodacolor reversal film

Wikipedia on Kodacolor negative film

 

The first reference in Kodak's chronology to 16mm black and white negative was 7229 in 1963. They don't make reference to a colour-negative film for 16mm until 1983 with 7291, but it doesn't explicitly say it was introduced then and obviously some people who have posted remember that there was 16mm colour-negative before that. Perhaps it is the Kodak chronology that originated that 80s rumour.

[Adam Hunt]

Some fun stuff:

 

 

And here is what Kodak has yet again re-purposed it's Kodacolor brand name for.

Edited April 28, 2011 by Adam Hunt

[Mark Dunn]

That clip has the distinctive look of the two-colour lenticular Kodacolor, which is, as you said, reversal. It has evidently been misdescribed as Kodachrome. Kodak make no mention of Kodachrome before 1930 and I suppose they should know.

In fact Kodacolor dates from 1928 so even the date is wrong. Mannes and Godowsky didn't even take out patents until 1924.

 

Aargh! I can't believe they've re-used Kodacolor for ink. Still, it's their show

[Mark Dunn]

They don't make reference to a colour-negative film for 16mm until 1983 with 7291,

 

No, it refers to '54 in 1968. '47 replaced it in about 1976. I, and many others no doubt, used it personally in 1979. There was nothing faster until Fuji A250 in 1980.

There's a famous story about '54 being temporarily reintroduced in 35mm after John Alcott complained during the shooting of Barry Lyndon.

[John Sprung]

... 2-strip Technicolor ...

 

Actually, the two primary Technicolor was a single strip prismatic over/under process. There were other two color systems that used two strips in a bi-pack, and Technicolor went with a bi-pack plus a green record for their three strip process.

 

VistaVision originated with old two primary Technicolor cameras turned on their sides, and the aperture opened up for the full 8 perfs. It was a natural idea, because the 8 perf movements already existed.

 

 

 

 

-- J.S.

[John Holland]

I think you will find that Paramount and Mitchell Cameras built VistaVision cameras from scratch > The old 3 strip

Technicolor were converted by that company to run 8 perf a system they called Technirama which included a 1.25 anamorphic , which then could be used to make wonderful 70 mm prints if required . This a long away from the thread about when 16mm colour neg was first used !

[Adam Hunt]

No, it refers to '54 in 1968.

 

Absolutely right! I missed that.

 

 

 

Actually, the two primary Technicolor was a single strip prismatic over/under process. There were other two color systems that used two strips in a bi-pack, and Technicolor went with a bi-pack plus a green record for their three strip process.

 

Now that you mention this, I remember reading all of this a year or two ago when I was trying to recreate the 2-colour look for a project.

[Adam Hunt]

That clip has the distinctive look of the two-colour lenticular Kodacolor, which is, as you said, reversal. It has evidently been misdescribed as Kodachrome. Kodak make no mention of Kodachrome before 1930 and I suppose they should know.

In fact Kodacolor dates from 1928 so even the date is wrong. Mannes and Godowsky didn't even take out patents until 1924.

 

According to Kodak it is Kodachrome and from 1922. Keep in mind though that this is an internal Kodak test, so even though actual Kodachrome was not introduced until 1935 they would have been experimenting with it long before that. Kodak also claims it is "some of the earliest colour motion picture film you will see" which would fit with the 1922 date which precedes the 2-colour 35mm process.

[John Sprung]

I think you will find that Paramount and Mitchell Cameras built VistaVision cameras from scratch > The

 

Indeed they did later on. The "elephant ears" VV's were made by Mitchell. I got a couple pair of those magazines on a dumpster dive.... After the demise of three strip, some of those were also converted -- a shame, since it meant junking both of the 4 perf movements. But the first VV's were made from old Technicolor two primary cameras, because they already had 8 perf movements.

 

 

 

 

-- J.S.

[John Sprung]

.... which would fit with the 1922 date which precedes the 2-colour 35mm process.

 

There was the Kinemacolor sequential frame process as early as 1912, but it had very bad fringing on moving objects. Technicolor's first two color film was "The Gulf Between" in 1917.

 

 

 

-- J.S.

[Leo Anthony Vale]

That clip has the distinctive look of the two-colour lenticular Kodacolor, which is, as you said, reversal. It has evidently been misdescribed as Kodachrome. Kodak make no mention of Kodachrome before 1930 and I suppose they should know.

In fact Kodacolor dates from 1928 so even the date is wrong. Mannes and Godowsky didn't even take out patents until 1924.

 

 

The name Kodachrome was used for a two-color process dating back to 1915.

The 35mm cine version used an 8p vertical pull down with a red and green frame.

The negs were printed onto a print stock with emusion on each side, then toned red and green.

The prints were similar to CineColor prints.

 

From The WideScreenMuseum: http://widescreenmuseum.com/oldcolor/subtract.htm

 

 

Fox used this process in 1929/30 under the name FoxColor.

In the 50s, these cameras were bought by Paramount for the 1st & maybe 2nd VistaVision movies.

they were mounted on their sides, hence "lazy 8".

 

If Kodak recycles stock numbers, e.g. 5247, their first color cine neg 1949 & the first ECNII stock in 1976.

[Simon Wyss]

Whew, it is all more complicated than thought.

 

Eastman Kodak state 7382, 16-mm. print film, as of 1953. It seems there was no 7381 ever.

 

Gert Koshofer writes about US patent 2,449,966 filed May 3, 1944, issued September 21, 1948. Colour masks would have been employed for 16-mm. Kodachrome Commercial Film in 1946 and for a professional Ektacolor Sheet film in 1948. Kodacolor negative film (paper prints) for amateur photographers got dye couplers, too, in 1949.

 

Cinecolor Corp. of Burbank was first to be equipped for ECN-ECP. Who will pick up information on the very first 16-mm. color negative-positive production? Looks like early sixties

[Leo Anthony Vale]

 

If Kodak recycles stock numbers, e.g. 5247, their first color cine neg 1949 & the first ECNII stock in 1976.

 

My bad, the ECNII 5247 was introduced in 1974.

 

 

 

There's a famous story about '54 being temporarily reintroduced in 35mm after John Alcott complained during the shooting of Barry Lyndon.

 

They had been pushing '54 to EI 200 400 & had the lighting down. But when '47 was pushed, the colors in the high lights & shadows shifted in different directions. I'm thinking the high lights went red & the shadows went green.

Some DPs thought that Kodak deliberately made '47 unpushable because it didn;t approve of non standard processing.

& Gordon Willis complained that the finer grain of '47 yielded images that looked like linoleum. Go Gordon!

What must he think of digital images? I went to cinematographer seminars at the AFI around the time 5247 was introduced.

& most of the top DPs complained about '47 because it wouldn't push well.

 

 

Actually, the two primary Technicolor was a single strip prismatic over/under process. There were other two color systems that used two strips in a bi-pack, and Technicolor went with a bi-pack plus a green record for their three strip process.

 

VistaVision originated with old two primary Technicolor cameras turned on their sides, and the aperture opened up for the full 8 perfs. It was a natural idea, because the 8 perf movements already existed.

 

 

As I mentioned above, Paramount used the Stein cameras, which were used for Fox Color, which was the two color Kodachrome process, which used an 8-perf pull down.

 

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_VRME60-RLag/R1Q4nVuiiwI/AAAAAAAADwE/QDHDXKxr7SQ

 

The 2-color Technicolor was a variation of the B&H 2709. So it had those noisy B&H movements and no rack/over.

 

 

 

Though I can see the 8-perf B&H movements being put into an animation camera or a printer camera.

 

3-strip Technicolor cameras were converted to 8-perf & were the cameras used after 'White Christmas'.

The first Mitchells were delivered to the 'Ten Commandments'.

 

This site has copyrighted photos of a Technicolor VV camera. One of which shows it without the magazine housing, but with the magazines in place: http://www.pbase.com/zanzinger/image/109391276