CInematographers should not be paid... What?

[Michael LaVoie]

I think Matt's advice is solid in general but those rates are tricky. You really have to know the client and somehow learn the overall ballpark budget. You can't even go by agency names anymore because there are so many. You could have a large brand name on the account but the actual production work was subcontracted out so many times that the entity paying you is working with practically nothing.

 

It's the wild west out there now. Branded content and editorial is even worse. I have no idea what to quote half the time since they often have no clue what the market rates for freelancers are.

Edited July 14, 2016 by Michael LaVoie

[Guest]

Overriding everything is the freedom people have to give their labour away, even if it's to a commercial enterprise. No one can stop them.

 

I did this for five years as a producer at CTV, I was flat salary, the unionized editor was not. At 5:01PM, I went to zero dollars, the editor went to time and a half!

 

That's ok, I did get a lot of those hours back. Starting an 8 hour edit shift at 5PM, and leaving at 6:30PM, or not coming in at all.

 

Someone started a joke at CTV.....Richard's hourly rate is higher than Ivan's (Ivan Fecan was the CEO.) Well that spread like wildfire. :D

 

R,

[Phil Rhodes]

And how many entries to the festival, from people exactly like you, were refused that year?

[Matthew W. Phillips]

And how many entries to the festival, from people exactly like you, were refused that year?

I imagine many of those "rejected" films were not even watched. If you count only the watched films then the acceptance rate might be fairly high. Key is...getting them to watch your film.

[Phil Rhodes]

Regardless, the point is that for every rock star there's literally thousands - probably millions - of people for whom it was all a massive waste of time.

[Guest]

All the festivals claim they watch every entered film from start to finish. I find it hard to believe that if 3, 000 features go to Sundance there is staff to watch 4, 500 hours worth of film.

 

R,

[Carl Looper]

It's not just the film that gets into a film festival. It's the filmmaker. This involves talking to people rather than just sending your film off in the mail and crossing your fingers. It's about politics. About arguing your case everywhere, as much as possible. Getting to know the powers that be and making sure they get to know you.

 

This doesn't mean the merits of the film are irrelevant. You certainly won't get anywhere without a film. And it certainly helps if it's a half decent film. But you also won't get anywhere just "believing in yourself". You have to get others to believe in you (your film) as well. And a first step can be belief in others.

 

C

Edited July 15, 2016 by Carl Looper

[Matthew W. Phillips]

This doesn't mean the merits of the film are irrelevant. You certainly won't get anywhere without a film. And it certainly helps if it's a half decent film. But you also won't get anywhere just "believing in yourself". You have to get others to believe in yourself as well. And a first step involves believing in others.

 

C

If I were a good con man, i would have became a used car salesman.

[Carl Looper]

If I were a good con man, i would have became a used car salesman.

 

I didn't mean to suggest anyone should con anyone. A lot of that does go on. And indeed, it is because of that, one needs to get politically involved. Otherwise the con-artists get away with it.

 

C

[Justin Hayward]

It's not just the film that gets into a film festival. It's the filmmaker. This involves talking to people rather than just sending your film off in the mail and crossing your fingers. It's about politics.

I submitted cold. Paid the fee. Sent the film in the mail. Didn't know anybody. Didn't talk to anybody. But that was a long time ago, I guess.

[Matthew W. Phillips]

 

I didn't mean to suggest anyone should con anyone. A lot of that does go on. And indeed, it is because of that, one needs to get politically involved. Otherwise the con-artists get away with it.

 

C

I know you didnt mean that. I was being cheeky about how some naturally gifted "salesman" types are. I happen to have no skills whatsoever to persuade people to buy something.

[Justin Hayward]

Regardless, the point is that for every rock star there's literally thousands - probably millions - of people for whom it was all a massive waste of time.

Again, I'll take this as a compliment. Thanks Phil :lol:

[Carl Looper]

I know you didnt mean that. I was being cheeky about how some naturally gifted "salesman" types are. I happen to have no skills whatsoever to persuade people to buy something.

 

Ah okay. My apologies.

 

Yes, it's those good at selling films that one is competing with. One needs to get into the ring with them. Even if it's to get knocked out with their first punch. At least you've made yourself visible and someone might make the effort to see why you put yourself into the ring in the first place. To have a look at your film. And if it's a half decent film, the film does the rest for you. The bruises no longer matter. You become vindicated so to speak. And find yourself on next years jury.

 

C

Edited July 15, 2016 by Carl Looper

[Carl Looper]

I submitted cold. Paid the fee. Sent the film in the mail. Didn't know anybody. Didn't talk to anybody. But that was a long time ago, I guess.

 

Oh yeah. I did a long time ago as well. And I managed to succeed. Indeed won a couple of awards. But I can imagine how easily that might not have occured. For when I got my foot in the door, I realised just how lucky I was. The amount of selling I realised was going on was just mind boggling. But it made sense. I mean it became obvious that what else would be going on. We're social animals. The cool thing is that it's the films that ultimately separate the phoneys from the dedicated.

 

C

Edited July 15, 2016 by Carl Looper

[Matthew W. Phillips]

I submitted cold. Paid the fee. Sent the film in the mail. Didn't know anybody. Didn't talk to anybody. But that was a long time ago, I guess.

I like how you qualified that it was a long time ago. In "Official Rejection", Kevin Smith stated that he doubts Clerks would be accepted into modern Sundance. They have grown bigger than poor indies, it seems.

[Justin Hayward]

I like how you qualified that it was a long time ago. In "Official Rejection", Kevin Smith stated that he doubts Clerks would be accepted into modern Sundance. They have grown bigger than poor indies, it seems.

I think today's Sundance programmers would drop kick a "Clerks" submission out of the festival.

[Justin Hayward]

And how many entries to the festival, from people exactly like you, were refused that year?

A lot, and I smoked them all despite your BS ;) :lol:

[Max Field]

I don't take anyone lecturing into a Blue Yeti seriously.

[Matthew W. Phillips]

A lot, and I smoked them all despite your BS ;) :lol:

Wow, you must be fun at parties.

[Max Field]

Hard to play in the NBA if you are 5' 1", no matter how passionate you are about basketball.

Why do we keep forgetting Muggsy Bogues on this forum??

Edited July 15, 2016 by Macks Fiiod

[Justin Hayward]

Wow, you must be fun at parties.

Yes, good point. I hope so!

[Tyler Purcell]

All the festivals claim they watch every entered film from start to finish. I find it hard to believe that if 3, 000 features go to Sundance there is staff to watch 4, 500 hours worth of film.

I've worked for many festivals and generally each voting member gets a group of films to watch. Then they rate the films in a spreadsheet. That spreadsheet is what dictates which movies move on and which ones are dumped.

 

Now, is every frame watched? Heck no! Generally, I watch the first 5 minutes. If it holds my interest for 5 minutes, I continue to watch until it doesn't anymore. The last festival I judged, we had a few hundred submissions and we only watched 20 all the way through, that's how BAD some of the movies are. That's WHY I know how BAD these low budget movies are, because I've had to watch many of them.

 

When it comes down to it, 80% is absolute throw away crap that's never watched. The next 15% are generally sent back with a nice letter that basically says "try again with your next project". The final 5% are the one's ALL of the judges watch and critique. Yes, only 5% are watched all the way through, by more then one person. At bigger festivals, I bet that number is even lower. I know people who vote for Venice and Berlin, but they have such high profile movies, it's really hard to get in edge wise.

 

FYI, this year for the motorsports festival I vote on, there was only ONE decent entry for over 100. Yes, only ONE movie that stood above the rest. It was an instant prize to the maker of that movie, which was sad. I was really hoping for more like the year prior.

[Tyler Purcell]

I think today's Sundance programmers would drop kick a "Clerks" submission out of the festival.

'Clerks' wouldn't even make it to a smaller festival in it's current condition. People don't jive on the B&W 16mm, home-made movie look anymore. Same goes for "PI", that would have been dumped as well in today's festivals.

[Guest]

Do we really want to get into festivals? It would spawn an all new rant in a thread about why DOPs should or should not get paid.

 

I say NONE of them should get paid, aside from eating all my food on set, what the hell else are they doing? :D

 

R,

[Tyler Purcell]

That's all I do when I'm on set Richard. I always tell my crew, if you want me, have someone visit the bathroom or crafty, those are the two places I'll be. It's the gaffers job to light ANYWAY! ROFL!!! :D