CInematographers should not be paid... What?

[Matthew W. Phillips]

Now, is every frame watched? Heck no! Generally, I watch the first 5 minutes. If it holds my interest for 5 minutes, I continue to watch until it doesn't anymore. The last festival I judged, we had a few hundred submissions and we only watched 20 all the way through, that's how BAD some of the movies are. That's WHY I know how BAD these low budget movies are, because I've had to watch many of them.

 

This is fair enough but there are stories that many submissions are still in the original packaging after the festival is over...with the submission payment received, of course.

[Guest]

This is fair enough but there are stories that many submissions are still in the original packaging after the festival is over...with the submission payment received, of course.

 

Why does Without a box promote itself to festivals as a tool to get more submissions? Gee I wonder? What does every submission have in common....oh I know, there's a cheque in the bubble wrap mailer!!!

 

We have people on here all the time advertising their BS film festivals, we should tell them all to bugger off unless they A) Refund all submission fees to everyone who does not get accepted, or B, Make all submissions free.

 

It's becoming quite the scam the entire festival industry.

 

And yes Matthew, I remember stories from the days when movies where submitted on VHS. The movie came back with the tape parked in the middle or one third of the way in. Gee that's odd, kinda like someone got bored, yanked the tape out, without even bothering to rewind it to cover their tracks.

 

R,

[Shawn Sagady]

One would hope there would be a way to promote a festival based on the merits of the film using some sort of crowd controled voting system to filter out the really bad stuff so the festival organizers do not have to watch every single thing. Then make your money charging entry to see the festival for audiences. But im sure im missing some really important steps here, like where prize money comes from etc.

[Tyler Purcell]

This is fair enough but there are stories that many submissions are still in the original packaging after the festival is over...with the submission payment received, of course.

We only take online submissions at the festivals I've worked at. We just force people to throw it on a private link on Vimeo or Youtube. It's far better then a bunch of disks floating around. Plus as the content maker, you know if someone ACTUALLY watched it or not! :)

 

Some of the bigger festivals have switched to that method recently. I did a few Sundance submissions last year and they were all online.

[Satsuki Murashige]

Also, do you know this guy Matt personally? He says in the video he still works for free today on commercial and music video's.

 

I also disagree wholeheartedly with his pay scale. There is much more to it.

I've never met Matt, but he used to post here maybe 10 years ago. He was a few years ahead of me. I respect him and how far he's come.

 

I completely agree with his points, both here and in his 'DP Rate' video. Frankly, it's pretty 'inside baseball' information that probably won't ring true to you unless you actually are a working DP in the industry, trying to work your way up from crappy no-budget student shorts, to thesis films, to low budget music videos and industrials, to small commercials, to bigger budget work with full crews and big toys. It's a struggle and career path that I recognize and see in many of my peers both ahead of and behind me.

 

Like Matt, I've done a ton of freebies, spec work, or $200/day type jobs in the past and some very recently. Most of which I've posted frame grabs from in the last year or two. It's simply part of doing business, finding new directors and clients to work with, adding some missing pieces to your reel, and getting your name out there.

 

My entire narrative reel is composed almost entirely of freebies. If I only put paid work on it, my reel would be mostly talking heads, doc work, greenscreen, and the insides of corporate offices. So when a director offered me the opportunity to shoot an actor in Ken Watanabe's costume from 'The Last Samurai' fighting through a sandstorm in Death Valley (for free), of course I said yes!

 

Or when that director's PA asked me to shoot his music video with naked models in the woods around Lake Tahoe (again for free), the answer again was yes! Those two projects on my reel are responsible for getting me a ton of paid work over the last four years. Imagine if I had said 'no' because I wouldn't work for free. I'd still probably be in Matt's 'one star' tier. Instead, I am on the upper end of 'indie' and just on the cusp of 'industry.'

 

I always say yes to such projects if: I love the script; I like the director and think they are talented; I see a visual opportunity to stretch some new muscles; the genre is something totally different than what I've been shooting lately; I think the project could generate a lot of buzz; there are some shots that I am dying to get on my reel.

 

If I can't find any reason to get excited about a project, and I'm not getting paid to boot then it's probably not worth my time.

[Phil Rhodes]

That's another transatlantic thing.

 

You guys get samurai in death valley.

 

We get... Another cheap music video.

[Satsuki Murashige]

And Matt talked about shoots with technocranes. If you can afford a technocrane, you can afford to give your CINEMATOGRAPHER, the guy who makes your effin' movie look good, a $100 bill at the end of each night.

 

He's talking about high-end spec commercials. These are projects with no client, just the production company and director paying out of pocket for a cool reel piece. You're not going to get Bob Richardson or Chivo to shoot your spec commercial, but a DP looking to move up to the next level would jump at the chance to shoot it. I know I would.

 

My feeling about these things is that out of the whole crew, the DP gets the most out of such a project - namely a hot new piece for your reel, the connections with the prod co and director, all the social media buzz that works as free advertising. Art, G&E, camera, sound, HMU, VFX, and the poor Production crew are usually called in as favors and get much less out of it. So they should get paid first.

 

That's where your rate ends up on a spec project - to the rental of the Cookes and the Fisher Dolly with the Lambda Head, and to pay your guys. I've been the one who has done favors for my DP friends in the past, and have also been the one who has called in favors (some of my guys might say too often!). But that's just the way it is in this business.

[Satsuki Murashige]

That's another transatlantic thing.

 

You guys get samurai in death valley.

 

We get... Another cheap music video.

 

Yeah, I don't feel sorry for you. You've got all those country estates amidst rocks and mountains, and Keira Knightly in Regency gowns. I'll take Keira over Death Valley any day!

[Phil Rhodes]

There are no mountains worthy of the name anywhere in the UK. The only reason Snowdon in Wales garners any fame is that it's the largest of a small lot: it would barely be worth mentioning on a map of, say, the Appalachian trail, where they only seem to even bother naming peaks higher than 4000ft. Ben Nevis would, I believe, just about squeak into the top ten.

 

There is nothing about the UK that is in any sense interesting, worthwhile or provoking of wonder. It is a patch of mud in the north atlantic - a contamination of the sea, really - and it's absolutely no surprise that Keira's success depends on the USA.

 

P

[Satsuki Murashige]

[Phil Rhodes]

Well... yes.

[Satsuki Murashige]

Phil. You are a treasure.

 

Now repeat after me: I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and gosh darnit, people like me.

[Max Field]

There is nothing about the UK that is in any sense interesting, worthwhile or provoking of wonder. It is a patch of mud in the north atlantic - a contamination of the sea

Finally a British guy that gets it.

[Phil Rhodes]

[Aapo Lettinen]

I didn't read all the comment, just wanted to say how it's here in a small country with very small film industry.

 

We don't make multi million dollar indie fims here, its usually between 1 and 3 million euros for a commercial feature film. Very rarely over that. The 3 mil is already very "big" budget here.

 

Here you can shoot whatever you want at filmschool and make indie features and whatnot but it rarely matters at all. Your career starts the moment you get in the pro world and start to get paid for your work. Nothing you do for free matters when you look for pro film jobs. They may laugh at you at most. If you got paid for something thats a guarantee you are worth something. Even unpaid intern job does not help much unless you can build connections that way (HODs for example) who can recommend you to paid jobs later.

[Aapo Lettinen]

Being good enough does not matter, there is 100 guys ahead of you who can do the same job better. If someone with connections can recommend you for a job it matters quite a lot. Doing non-paid stuff is only beneficial if you can learn very much from each gig and it thus help proceeding in your career but non paid jobs generally dont lead to paid job ever, whatever the greedy indie producer says.

 

I don't do non paid work anymore at any level btw, other than shooting my own canera tests every once in a while. If a indie production has the budget to rent cameras and lights, pay the transport cost and so on they always have money to pay you at least something. And if not, then its not even worth for showreel material because they cant afford production value. Just my 2 cents

[Phil Rhodes]

 

 

non paid jobs generally dont lead to paid job ever, whatever the greedy indie producer says.

 

Couldn't agree more.

 

I would also include anything at the very-low-pay end in that.

 

P

[Aapo Lettinen]

Yep. Non paid jobs are a learning tool, NOT career building. This includes student films, indie films, most of the spec work, etc

[Max Field]

Never believed in paying by exposure, only experience. If you stack you work among others getting paid and see superiority in your own, turn down the free jobs and grind on connections.

Edited July 15, 2016 by Macks Fiiod

[Guest]

There is nothing about the UK that is in any sense interesting, worthwhile or provoking of wonder. It is a patch of mud in the north atlantic - a contamination of the sea, really - and it's absolutely no surprise that Keira's success depends on the USA.

 

P

 

Phil, don't post nonsense. Our nation has amazing stuff both natural and man made. Millions of people from around the globe visit the UK every year to see all the "historic sites" far too many to list. Where I'm from in Yorkshire has endless turns of breathtaking scenery.

 

Come on!!

 

R,

[Guest]

Finally a British guy that gets it.

 

HA! Ok, we can all visit the good ol USA, well provided we can dodge the shootings and race riots.

 

R,

[Max Field]

Are we forgetting England had a riot only 5 years ago?

[Guest]

Are we forgetting England had a riot only 5 years ago?

 

Are you serious? FIVE(5) years ago?

 

They appear to be happening daily in the USA, you don't watch the news?

 

R,

[Max Field]

The media wants everything here to look like a riot because it sells. As a successful businessman, I'd assume you understand presentation leads to profit. Or is that more of the British sarcasm I've been hearing about?

Edited July 15, 2016 by Macks Fiiod

[Phil Rhodes]

 

 

Phil, don't post nonsense

 

Nonsense? You left.

 

Quite sensibly, I should add, but don't lecture me on the benefits of this place.

 

P