Industry input on daughters career path with a portfolio website question mixed in

[Glenn Batson]

I'd just like to address this part, because while I don't doubt your daughter could get straight A's for the rest of her life, it's important to not put too much weight into it. In my experience; high school academics are used to pat the backs of some and marginalize others.

 

If she's told "hey do this" and follows up, that's one piece of the pie. An arguably bigger piece is self-motivation or self-inspiration. High school doesn't want you to think outside the box, this industry requires it.

i know it sounds like I'm bragging on my daughter but that is not the intent. AP classes are hard. She was in a very competitive school. My intent with the comment is that even though she was carrying a heavy load her passion was to hang out with her film buddies shooting, collaborating, etc. Spending hours up at her film class (lab) editing. Then she would have to work her butt off late hours for her academics that she could really care less about the AP classes but she kept up and ended up with good grades. Also what I'm trying to get at is also you statement. Yeah I'm dad. Yeah I'm biased but I am a lot closer to the situation. You are not wrong. So in the end I think the motivation is there at least to consider her dropping school and trying to get some work. Time will tell. What no one has said is I looked at her reel and the films you posted and hey your kidding yourself. Based on that alone she is going to get nowhere. So in the end I'm good with your statements and everyone's statements. It is a learning process and we'll have to make our decisions.

 

Yeah on her reading this, if she can't handle it then she shouldn't be going down career path she is choosing. :) Honey your dad loves you :)

 

Macks surely your creative enough to get content from this and working this crazyness into your youtube channel :)

[Max Field]

Yeah I'm dad. Yeah I'm biased but I am a lot closer to the situation.

My statement wasn't so much in response to you directly as it was just tackling USA's secondary school system in general. These counselors are paid to get the universities paid.

[AJ Young]

If I may, can I add a perspective on working as a DP?

 

The most important thing your daughter should remember is that being a cinematographer is running a business; very much like a dentist, hair stylist/colorist, therapist, etc. A manufacturing company doesn't have money always coming in, they constantly have to build relationships with new clients, develop new contracts, and so on. A cinematographer is self-employed and their success is dependent on location, the market, awareness of the market, networking abilities, their own motivation, and a great deal of luck.

 

You'll hear arguments for/against film school, but the most important skills she will need to learn are how to run her own business.

 

Self-employment is challenging in the beginning and the first ten years will most likely be the hardest. However, if you support her both financially and psychologically, she'll be set up for success. Every great business has had help throughout it's entire life; it's the same with self-employed family.

[Glenn Batson]

If I may, can I add a perspective on working as a DP?

 

The most important thing your daughter should remember is that being a cinematographer is running a business; very much like a dentist, hair stylist/colorist, therapist, etc. A manufacturing company doesn't have money always coming in, they constantly have to build relationships with new clients, develop new contracts, and so on. A cinematographer is self-employed and their success is dependent on location, the market, awareness of the market, networking abilities, their own motivation, and a great deal of luck.

 

You'll hear arguments for/against film school, but the most important skills she will need to learn are how to run her own business.

 

Self-employment is challenging in the beginning and the first ten years will most likely be the hardest. However, if you support her both financially and psychologically, she'll be set up for success. Every great business has had help throughout it's entire life; it's the same with self-employed family.

 

Thanks AJ. Yeah this is one of the things I worry the most about. I've held a regular full-time job all my life (last one been for over 20 years) but have had discussions with my mom (though different era and type of market) about my dad's business (air conditioning/plumbing). How their bank account was empty and they had some groceries but were waiting on that 8k payment from a a service they did to get through the next period. Luckily they has some local business men who were dedicated to keep him on a contract type basis. My mom eventually started teaching but that was after my dad decided to go work for someone else for the rest of his life. I'm always amazed that those that strike out on their own and run their own business no matter what it may be. I don't know that college itself, even a business degree sets you up exactly for being a freelancer but I could be wrong. Along with her making her film contacts I think she really needs to make some contacts on running a business (workshops maybe) and have a mentor in that area along with film mentor. All I can do with my experience is just give her the financial and moral support which we are willing to do when it makes sense.

[AJ Young]

I completely agree, freelancer seminars or small business classes will definitely help her more than figuring it out on her own.

 

A straight out business degree won't really prepare her to be a working cinematographer because she won't be learning the technical and artistic trades of cinematography. It's a hard balance to find with a school; most film schools that I know of focus little attention on how a cinematographer runs their own business. Columbia College Chicago, my alma matter, did offer classes that taught students how to send/track invoices, run a business, network, etc. However, none of these classes were required and the school struggled to get those classes filled. Learning how to run a business is simply boring in the world of creative.

 

On another note, related but wholly different:

 

The secret to success for the industry is to maintain a low overhead. I have no problem with film school education, I have a problem with college costs in general. Graduates of any field leave school with a large amount of debt that can not be erased via bankruptcy. AFI, Chapman, and UCLA students pay upwards of $125k for a masters degree. They leave school and suddenly are hit with a minimum monthly payment the size of their monthly expenses. That is the career killer, not bad luck, bad attitude, poor work. As a point of perspective, I have colleagues shooting major TV shows who are still paying off their student debt.

 

I truly believe everyone should get a college degree; non-film industry jobs almost always requiring one. The deciding factor on which college is the one you and her can afford. A quality film education that teaches her art, business, technology, and management will set her up for success, but only if her debt from school is either manageable or non-existent.

 

Community colleges are an excellent way for to bang out general education classes. Hell, there are some great community college film schools, like Scottsdale Community College in Arizona. They can be a great starting point that transfer over to universities where she can finish her degree for half the cost.

[David Mawson]

I'm not in the film industry, but people sometimes pay me to analyse business plans for risk. This is what I see -

 

- Film school degrees are expensive

 

- Most programs seem to be of low quality and relevance

 

- Perhaps ten or twenty times too many graduates are produced

 

- A big % of the small number of jobs available in the mainstream movie industry will go to people with insider connections in the industry - family members of people already there

 

- You can buck the odds if you're hyper-talented... But if you're that talented, you don't need to go to film school.

 

Conclusion: going to film school means you get to pursue a hobby for several years and call it a degree. The degree will be of little value and you'll have incurred a lot of debt.

 

Here's an alternative - it may well be completely wrong -

 

- Get business insurance, sound gear and a camera. Then start shooting weddings, videos for local businesses and bands. Shoot showreel pieces for local actors - learn how to take stills head shots too, actors always need them. And shoot short films for yourself. You'll have to start at the bottom for price and work your way up as you build credibility

- Take courses part-time or via distance learning that will count towards a degree. As you're running a business and shooting, you'll be in an excellent position to choose the right courses.

 

- Volunteer to crew for selected low-budget movies, then as you get experience be more selective - take jobs that pay or which teach you what you need to know next

 

After several years of this you should have an excellent showreel, great camera and editing skills, experience of managing budgets, contacts in the state film industry, and lots of clients who are willing to swear you are rock solid. You can finish off with a year of full-time school if necessary. You won't be in debt and you'll have a good idea what you should do next - maybe you are hyper-talented and should go to LA or try to raise the money to shoot a cheap feature, maybe you like shooting weddings and want to aim to be the world's top wedding shooter and shoot 20 or so 5-10K weddings a year with some corporate work on weekdays, maybe you're great at shootings videos for bands and clients are asking you to fly around the country. Or maybe it hasn't suited you as well as you hoped, in which case you're glad you're not in debt and can use those book keeping and computer skills so you don't have to work at McDonalds.

[Phil Rhodes]

I tend to agree.

[Glenn Batson]

Here's an alternative - it may well be completely wrong -

 

Thanks David. In a way part of this is what her High School teacher said. When I first had the revelation about the industry I turned to him with the questions more along the lines, if Anna quit school would she have the skills to work on crews now and try to make a go of it. I didn't ask him the film school question directly because he is an educator and I didn't want to put him in that position. He basically said Anna has the skills now and that the only thing she is lacking is working with a real film crew and lingo and set dynamics that go with that. Those things are different per crew to a degree and she would just learn those quiclly on the job. He mentioned she could easily start doing the wedding gigs and local commercial shooting both of which she already has experience in. She shot her first wedding with her teacher and another of her film buddies and she did all the editing (linked below). She has shot two commercials, one with SPCA and one for a local hotel. He said she could get these jobs and then work her way into the gigs she wants. He said he had a friend who went to film school started shooting weddings and local commercials on the side and then was making enough he just decided to quit and do it full time. So when I talk about her quitting school these are all the things she'll have to consider to help pay the bills and move her career forward. The reason I just didn't say ok that is it we are good and I why I posted to this forum is I wanted to hear some more evidence to help make a decision one way or another.

 

Wedding

https://vimeo.com/224585092

 

Thanks again.

 

Dad

Edited August 30, 2017 by Glenn Batson

[David Mawson]

 

Thanks David. In a way part of this is what her High School teacher said. When I first had the revelation about the industry I turned to him with the questions more along the lines, if Anna quit school would she have the skills to work on crews now and try to make a go of it. I didn't ask him the film school question directly because he is an educator and I didn't want to put him in that position. He basically said Anna has the skills now and that the only thing she is lacking is working with a real film crew and lingo and set dynamics that go with that. Those things are different per crew to a degree and she would just learn those quiclly on the job. He mentioned she could easily start doing the wedding gigs and local commercial shooting both of which she already has experience in. She shot her first wedding with her teacher and another of her film buddies and she did all the editing (linked below). She has shot two commercials, one with SPCA and one for a local hotel. He said she could get these jobs and then work her way into the gigs she wants. He said he had a friend who went to film school started shooting weddings and local commercials on the side and then was making enough he just decided to quit and do it full time. So when I talk about her quitting school these are all the things she'll have to consider to help pay the bills and move her career forward. The reason I just didn't say ok that is it we are good and I why I posted to this forum is I wanted to hear some more evidence to help make a decision one way or another.

 

Thanks again.

 

Dad

 

Then my big advice - GET BUSINESS INSURANCE! I'd shoot for free rather than charge without it, and I'm in the much less litigious UK.

 

And second to that, don't think of this as quitting school - she should take part time courses, either by distance learning or attending a local school. Put some serious effort into finding the best value courses available that will help a small business owner.

 

Also, consider reliability and service carefully when making major investments in hardware - eg Sony have a very poor rep for both compared to Nikon and Canon in stills world.

Edited August 30, 2017 by David Mawson

[Landon D. Parks]

Liability insurance is a must if you are shooting anything, anywhere. Even short film projects. Most places won't issue a permit without it, and it doesn't have to be expensive. You can get a short term production insurance package for liability and property damage for less than a few hundred dollars. I have generally found that the more 'film centric' insurance companies tend to overcharge, but then again the insurance is often tailored for the industry and you have the option of adding other types of insurance, like E&O. I have been saying this for a long time. It doesn't matter if it's just you and your friends shooting something - that won't stop you from being sued, and certainly won't stop a judgement against you or your friends.

 

I use The Event Helper for my liability and property damage insurance. They are quick, have great rates, and are easy to work with.

Edited August 30, 2017 by Landon D. Parks

[Phil Rhodes]

 

 

GET BUSINESS INSURANCE

 

Never heard of it...

[AJ Young]

I still believe, in the US at least, that your daughter should get a bachelor's degree. It can be in cinematography, business, or whatever. But, she should get a bachelor's; they've become the new high school diploma.

 

The film industry doesn't particularly care if you have a bachelor's degree, but most other industries do. My wife is a project manager in manufacturing, but she has a bachelor's degree in film production. A film degree isn't entirely useless, it's better than no degree at all.

[Guest]

I make a living in the film industry, producer/director.

 

BOTH of my sons are BANNED from pursuing a career in film, full stop.

 

R,

[Max Field]

BOTH of my sons are BANNED from pursuing a career in film, full stop.

 

R,

That could be a film in itself if they had any desire to.

[Jon O'Brien]

Filmmakers are like musos. WHY would you do it? The answer is a simple one.

[Bruce Greene]

Filmmakers are like musos. WHY would you do it? The answer is a simple one.

Musos. I learned a new word today!

[Bruce Greene]

I make a living in the film industry, producer/director.

 

BOTH of my sons are BANNED from pursuing a career in film, full stop.

 

R,

Glenn has a daughter. Different rules apply?

:rolleyes:

[Guest]

Glenn has a daughter. Different rules apply?

:rolleyes:

 

Well that's one issue no one has dared touch in this thread. There are ZERO female DOPs posting on this website, why is that?

 

R,

[Max Field]

Uh oh

[AJ Young]

I'll touch on the issue of women cinematographers. I don't know why only men are posting on this specific forum, but there are working women cinematographers and other online cinematography communities with active female members.

 

A reality is that discrimination still happens in our industry, either through unconscious bias, sexism, or prejudice. I'm not an expert on the topic, nor am I the right person to be talking about it, but I know people who are:

• The International Collective of Female Cinematographers is a great starting point for your daughter to reach out to for advice on starting her career as a cinematographer. Website
• Cinematographers XX is another group, like ICFC, who I recommend your daughter contact and get advice. Website
• Cybel Martin is a working union cinematographer based in NYC. She responds to twitter pretty quickly, so have your daughter contact her through there. Twitter Website
• Julia Swain is a working non-union cinematographer based in LA. She is also working on her documentary titled Women of Light which explores the history and future of women cinematographers. She too is good at responding on twitter. Twitter Website

I'm the last person who you should seek advice on about this issue. I am aware about this topic, am trying to understand it, and actively improve trying equality in our craft. The people and organizations I've mentioned are the ones your daughter should seek advice from.

[Phil Rhodes]

I was asked to write an article on this subject a while ago. I had to dig quite hard to find one example, directly supported by evidence, of someone in the film industry being discriminated against on the basis of her gender. I probably has to ask twenty or twenty-five people in order to find that example. As far as I can tell there is no reason to believe there is widespread, deliberate and systematic exclusion of women from the film industry.

 

Frankly, it's easy for anyone to gripe about the way the film industry has treated them - everyone's got a story, and everyone likes to make excuses, but in the main my impression is that any gender prejudice (or frankly most kinds of prejudice) is so buried by nepotism, luck, and the massive oversubscription of jobs that it's effectively undetectable.

 

In short, it will not seem fair, but it doesn't seem fair to anyone.

 

P

[Max Field]

People also sort of choose to ignore the fact that, societally, women are encouraged into certain jobs/careers. There aren't a lot of female DoPs cause there aren't a lot of women who want to be DoPs. They're out there but people should start looking into the statistics for people who want the jobs in addition to the people who have the jobs.

Edited August 31, 2017 by Macks Fiiod

[Guest]

I think the ASC is about 95% male. Lucky for them women haven't turned their guns on them the way they have the job of director. Mainly because no one really knows what a DOP is or does, and he's not high profile or "celebrated" like the director is. Not a single woman has won an Oscar for best cinematography. The director category is doing slightly better, one women has won an Oscar for best director.

 

Frankly, I don't think many women are interested in being a DOP. These days being a DOP involves being on the road potentially weeks on end. Nothing will be shooting in your area that you can go to on a 9-5 basis. Look at David Mullen, every time he works he gets on a plane, what does that tell you? I also think very few high school girls consider working behind the camera in any capacity in film, and these are future generations that feed the industry.

 

My current project involves using two of Toronto's biggest post houses, so far one woman has worked on the film....one. This out of a small army of people between the two facilities. Again, I think if you toured 30 high school girls through these post houses they'd have zero interest in working there full time one day. Now there are people who will say, well Richard that's because they don't see any women doing these jobs in first place. That might be true, I dunno?

 

Women have moved in large numbers into other areas of the film industry though, many distributors have majority women departments including being led by a female VP. Casting directors in LA are certainly well over the 50% mark. One of the big banks in Canada has a film lending division that is all women staffed, not a single man working there, that kind of surprised me. I mean not even one man?

 

So women have made great strides in some areas of the industry, in other areas, mainly production...not so much. Why? is a question that will be debated for a very long time.

 

I will add, before any freaking out begins, that all the women I have had on set over the course of five feature films were all excellent, and I mean excellent. A lady production designer saved my ass on two movies, big time, and she knows it! Also had women in the camera dept as ACs and they were all terrific.

 

This is also the year that Hollywood's highest grossing movie was directed by a woman. So clearly, it's not all bad news out there.

 

R,

 

Now we need, Freya, the lone woman who posts on this forum to comment. :)

[Glenn Batson]

Women in DP

My daughter is fully aware of that fact and being a young woman in this day and age, that is motivation for her along with she loves the work. I guess for "me" after looking at the Camera department I see it a lot like why are there not many women carpenters/builders. Just not a job a woman normally went into. As for discrimination based on sex it is going to happen everywhere. For me personally I see it as a generational thing and changing over time. One thing is my daughter is not the lightweight type. About 5'10, played a lot of basketball as a youngster and lifted weights in high school. So I would like to think she can hang with the physical work. Slippery slope this topic.

 

Sony

I think someone mentioned about Sony and reliability. My son did the Appalachian Trail Thru Hike last summer. If you don't know what that is it is approx 2000 mile journey from Georgia to Maine from Mar to Sep through the Appalachian Mountains. Something like elevation change would be like hiking Everest 16 times. He is (actually both of us) are amateur photographs. We bought him a Sony A7 for the journey. We were worried about it making the trip but it did. Now maybe he just took good care of it. Normally had it strapped in a chest pack or in his hand. Took a lot photos.

 

Musos

Count me also googling that word.

 

This Thread

Everyone here I can't state enough how I appreciate the input. AJ that was a great last post.

 

Well back to work.

[Stuart Brereton]

Women are well represented in some departments, namely Hair/Makeup, Wardrobe, Art Department and Production, and not so well in others, like Camera and G&E. That said, I know plenty of female ACs, and it's only a matter of time before they step up into Operator roles, and onwards to DP.

 

I'd agree with Phil, and say that I've never heard of women being actively discriminated against in this industry. I have heard stories of (and experienced) men being discriminated against on the basis of gender.