Gregg MacPherson Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 (edited) Duncan's ACL 1.5 "show and tell" reminded me of ideas percolating on an integrated iris rod, handles, battery and shoulder pad mount system for ACL. I had a fun idea a while ago that was conceived with a casting with 19mm rod mounts giving the handle mounts. But that's a lot of work unless one has skills and a mill to machine the casting. So the current idea is just conceived as being cut from an aluminum angle section or C section. Single handle version... An aluminum angle with a vertical face on the RH side. Chinese rossette for a side handle. 9 pin cannon connection safely hidden behind vertical face. Chinese 15mm iris rod clamps screwed to a riser at the front of the horizontal face. The two handle version... An aluminum C section so you have vertical faces on left and right sides of camera, rossettes each side for handles. Same 15mm iris rod clamp idea. A single rod clamp at the right rear for battery mount options. The ideas that I thought about before beginning the exercise. - All load taken through the 3/8" mount under the camera base. - The hand held rig will fit straight onto a tripod. - Maybe a shoulder pad can fit to the quick release plate. - Need good access to the original switch even if switching with the 9 pin cannon on the RH side. - Rod mount must be close enough to the body so that follow focus can reach prime lenses. - Develop some extension to the rear that allows battery position to the rear. Maybe a single rod offset from the mag. The sketch below shows the ACL II version. If I get a chance I will make an an AUTOCAD drawing so these are easy to make Cheers, Gregg. Edited March 31, 2022 by Gregg MacPherson more words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregg MacPherson Posted March 31, 2022 Author Share Posted March 31, 2022 (edited) Second thoughts, the rod mount won't hide the cannon 9 pin connector. No problem, it will just have a protective cover screwed to the camera body.. The sketch shows a rod base made from a 100x40x6mm C section. A smaller than 100mm width is possible. Just saw some 80x40x6mm rect section in the catalogue. When one looks at the side elevation (can show later) there is room to shift the rosettes and iris rod clamp rearward. The LH rossette sneaks under the motor a bit. Gregg. Edited March 31, 2022 by Gregg MacPherson more words Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travis Shannon Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 In my mind the biggest stumbling block is the single 3/8s point for mounting in the bottom, I’ve had a similar thought - it would be great to have all of this integrated into a baseplate but how do you keep it from rotating? I suppose you could put some kind of a lip in that uses friction to keep the whole thing from twisting? The other issue I suppose would be the battery since there’s so few original acl batteries it seems everyone is using their own homebrew solution which is fine but also how do you make a mount that can receive that many shapes and sizes of batteries? A gold/v solution would be great off the back, somebody should get on a jeager to d tap with an inline voltage regulator. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregg MacPherson Posted March 31, 2022 Author Share Posted March 31, 2022 In the idea in my sketch the camera base can snug right into the corner of the C section aluminum. Just need to mill or file out the corner radius. The vertical for the RH rossette is forward of that so the corner radius remains there. Battery rod mount should be less stressed so a had corner may be ok there. With the battery rod mount, sofar all I was doing was trying to improve the mass distribution of the camera, shifting the batt to the rear. It could go all the way to the back of the mag. I never used any of the modern battery systems so I don't know what they require, but one could design a small generalised mounting fitting or plate that clamped onto the battery rod, and tucked around the back of the mag. Then whatever generic or ad hoc battery mounts required could screw to that. If the battery rod/mount idea can be a single rod and cope ok with the torque on the rod due to the offset battery position, good. Other battery positions possible, like beside the mag, but as far back as pos. In that case the mass distribution, L R wise, is same as with the normal onboard battery. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregg MacPherson Posted March 31, 2022 Author Share Posted March 31, 2022 (edited) There are cheap V mount mounting plates with 15mm rods clamp. Using one rod only the torque due to gravity may be fine with the batt offset behind the mag, or one may need a pin or set screw with detent. The aluminum tube may bend if it gets a big bump, but that's a good thing, taking energy, and being cheap to replace... Square rod is nice for this kind of problem, but it's a lot of work making the clamps/fittings without the right tools. And using solid square aluminum rod will put big loads on the clamp on the rod base... Re making square holes, witness this slightly masochistic exercise, machined with a drill and file....(40years ago...!) Gregg Edited March 31, 2022 by Gregg MacPherson more words 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travis Shannon Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 Oh wow, that’s certainly one solution to recentering the matte box for s16. As long as the trays are side loading it doesn’t look half bad honestly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregg MacPherson Posted April 1, 2022 Author Share Posted April 1, 2022 Not many, if any options back then. The Arri 4x4 was bigger, heavier and no way could I afford it. No internet to go looking for obscure third party providers, and no Chinese manufacturing revolution yet. The Britten brothers, famous for the motorcycle, rented an Arri matte box for the weekend and copied it. Those were the days. The MB shown above has a good long bellows. It's a side loading 3x3. No trays, just slide straight in. I never got around to finishing it, it needed a latch of some kind to keep the side door closed and needed a donut I designed and made patterns for all the castings. The whole thing is very light and didn't affect the balance much when hand holding using primes. Gregg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Aapo Lettinen Posted April 1, 2022 Premium Member Share Posted April 1, 2022 23 hours ago, Travis Shannon said: The other issue I suppose would be the battery since there’s so few original acl batteries it seems everyone is using their own homebrew solution which is fine but also how do you make a mount that can receive that many shapes and sizes of batteries? I like to use nimh airsoft batteries with most film cameras, or small 6v gel batteries with the Cameflex and such. Because I am lazy I have just attached velcro tape on both the batteries and the camera body / magazine / motor or similar flat surface and just smack the battery there without much other mounting. Sometimes I may attach additional velcro piece to secure it further but that is not always needed. Lazy is the easiest way to go in most cases heh ? I will have a new motor for the ACL available later this year which replaces all the old electronics. Would allow users making different bases with built in rods for the cameras too because the original electronics which are built into the camera base would not be needed anymore and I can build the new electronics either into the base, into a separate control box connected via cable or into a small box mounted to the motor itself. Display etc. and other advanced features. Just a thought if someone finds it overly difficult to deal with the original design of the camera ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregg MacPherson Posted April 1, 2022 Author Share Posted April 1, 2022 (edited) Hey Aapo, Any chance of a thread on progress with the ACL motor? You could keep the postings short. Too late to take votes on the ideas? My vote is for... - A form similar to the Aaton LTR/XTR motor, with a small box extending from the motor housing to the rear, and an XLR-4 connector at the lower rear of that - Replicate the Lemo on the camera base that powers the AZSpectrum video assist. Don't know what else that does. - Speeds we have now are ok, but if it didn't add cost, more would be better. - Single frame capable. - Mirror parking. I wouldn't care if it didn't have it, but most people will want it. - I'm sure you have ideas on the LCD display for speed, battery V and footage counter already. Footage counter would be good, as only the English mag is really explicit, and also, the common video assist obscures the mag footage counter. Here's to elegant laziness yielding a simple, robust design. Gregg. PS..Edit..I didn't get the last joke.."Just a thought if someone finds it overly difficult to deal with the original design of the camera..." Edited April 1, 2022 by Gregg MacPherson more words Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travis Shannon Posted April 1, 2022 Share Posted April 1, 2022 3 hours ago, aapo lettinen said: I like to use nimh airsoft batteries with most film cameras, or small 6v gel batteries with the Cameflex and such. Because I am lazy I have just attached velcro tape on both the batteries and the camera body / magazine / motor or similar flat surface and just smack the battery there without much other mounting. Sometimes I may attach additional velcro piece to secure it further but that is not always needed. Lazy is the easiest way to go in most cases heh ? I will have a new motor for the ACL available later this year which replaces all the old electronics. Would allow users making different bases with built in rods for the cameras too because the original electronics which are built into the camera base would not be needed anymore and I can build the new electronics either into the base, into a separate control box connected via cable or into a small box mounted to the motor itself. Display etc. and other advanced features. Just a thought if someone finds it overly difficult to deal with the original design of the camera ? Hi Aapo, I’ve heard rumblings about this project on the board but that’s exciting to hear the specifics, like Gregg said definitely keep us posted. And also like Gregg said, I myself would love mirror parking haha. Will you be making them for all different sized ACL bases? Is it crystal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregg MacPherson Posted April 1, 2022 Author Share Posted April 1, 2022 2 hours ago, Travis Shannon said: ....making them for all different sized ACL bases? ... I was wondering if the vertical dimensions of the big multispeed motor might be ok constraints for Aapo's design. But the bottom of the motor is close to being in plane with the bottom of the base on an ACL 1.5, so I'm thinking a riser plate would be needed on an ACL I base. Not a real problem. Regarding the motor mounting plates. An ACL II (and a 1.5 may be same) has a small inner mounting plate that I think fits the small motor, and a larger mounting plate that fits over that and screws to it. The big motor fits that. Would be good to know if the French inner mounting plate is the same as the English one. It's the inner plate that has the screwed connection to the camera. So, thinking of accidents, bumps, there may not be much advantage in retaining the big mounting plate. Big plate might make motor alignment easier if you have limitations in accuracy of the machined mating face on the motor body. Gregg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heikki Repo Posted April 1, 2022 Share Posted April 1, 2022 (edited) 4 hours ago, Travis Shannon said: Hi Aapo, I’ve heard rumblings about this project on the board but that’s exciting to hear the specifics, like Gregg said definitely keep us posted. And also like Gregg said, I myself would love mirror parking haha. Will you be making them for all different sized ACL bases? Is it crystal? As Aapo is building the first prototype motor for me, I can perhaps say in his stead that in the discussions thus far have been several crystal speeds and LCD screen for displaying the footage. Furthermore, as Aapo above writes, he plans to make the electronics in such a way that depending on the size of the base, the electronics can be installed in the base or in a separate enclosure. The ACL I have shipped to Aapo has a larger base, but it's not exactly the same as the ACL2 base. I'm having the electronics replaced, which allows using the XLR plugin of the base. Many details of the project haven't been fixed yet and might change along the way, so please be patient if Aapo doesn't explicate everything at this point :) Edited April 1, 2022 by Heikki Repo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Aapo Lettinen Posted April 1, 2022 Premium Member Share Posted April 1, 2022 It actually does make it way easier if the "big outer plate" of the original motor fitting is available because a new motor will inevitably cover the four screws which mount the smaller plate on the camera and it makes it pretty impossible to mount a motor on it unless custom making a new bigger mounting plate similar style to the original one. There is lots of different models of the ACL with different original electronics and base shape which means that in some cases I will need to custom design a board for a customer's camera even if trying the make the current design as versatile as possible. The physical fitting of the circuit boards into the available space inside the original camera is the biggest limition with almost any crystal sync system and it is extremely time consuming and expensive to make new boards even if the electrical circuit and all the software is the same, only the board shape needs to be different. It will be a multi-speed crystal sync system with a oled display and pretty advanced functions but I will disclose the exact details when having the v1.0 version finished and shipped to the customer (me having previous bad experiences with releasing too much information early on on the previous projects) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Aapo Lettinen Posted April 1, 2022 Premium Member Share Posted April 1, 2022 2 minutes ago, Heikki Repo said: As Aapo is building the first prototype motor for me, I can perhaps say in his stead that in the discussions thus far have been several crystal speeds and LCD screen for displaying the footage. Furthermore, as Aapo above writes, he plans to make the electronics in such a way that depending on the size of the base, the electronics can be installed in the base or in a separate enclosure. The ACL I have shipped to Aapo has a larger base, but it's not exactly the same as the ACL2 base. I'm having the electronics replaced, which allows using the XLR plugin of the base. Many details of the project haven't been fixed yet and might change along the way, so please be patient if Aapo doesn't explicate everything at this point :) yes the idea is that I will try to make circuit boards which can be fitted in couple of different ways to install either into the original base or into a separate box which can be mounted to the motor itself or be attached to it via a cable if the customer specifically wants ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregg MacPherson Posted April 1, 2022 Author Share Posted April 1, 2022 12 hours ago, aapo lettinen said: It actually does make it way easier if the "big outer plate" of the original motor fitting is available because a new motor will inevitably cover the four screws which mount the smaller plate on the camera and it makes it pretty impossible to mount a motor on it unless custom making a new bigger mounting plate similar style to the original one.... Without knowing the form of your motor I wasn't suggesting mounting directly to the camera body with the four inner screws. Just wondering if the three screw locations on the small motor mount are an option. If needing the bigger radius of the big outer plate, then those with ACL Is will find the plate probably. VP had them about 5 years ago, probably still do. A few years ago, before (Gerard?) at Arts Media disappeared, I was selling him a lens and he offered me to quickly harvest a stash of parts. To my profound regret I did not act. I wish I had somehow helped to find them all homes that would make them accessible. Gregg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregg MacPherson Posted April 4, 2022 Author Share Posted April 4, 2022 (edited) Mostly done on drawings for an integrated base. Hope these pdfs will open. Some version of this looks easy to make. The Chinese fittings are not an accurate drawing of available parts, but useful as is. If I finish and settle on some fittings I will specify. Does anyone know if all the Chinese "Arri standard rosettes" out there actually fit each other..? The handles shown are just bent alloy tube. You can buy Smallrig handle sets that will fit on the rossettes. Still pondering the torque if we have battery and shoulder pad offsets. Maybe a single 19mm rod or square rod. For some reason double rods to the rear just for shoulder pad and battery is really unappealing. I'd rather go back to a 19mm rod base and fix all to that. The common practice of putting a handle set on onto LW 15mm rods may be ok for light cameras, but I think is unworkable for ACL, at least for ACL II. The vertical offset from base to rods raises stress, so a stronger machined part would be needed. Also, it is trickey getting the follow focus far enough back to reach the prime lens gear on ACL. The rod mount part(s) take up space and you need to leave room for access to the run switch on the body. Shifting a handle mount further forward will add more stress to the rod mount and rods. If these pdfs aren't reachable I will try something else. Gregg base plate 5 et al.pdf base plate 5 no camera.pdf Edited April 4, 2022 by Gregg MacPherson more words Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregg MacPherson Posted April 4, 2022 Author Share Posted April 4, 2022 Missed my edit window.... Feel free to do with or develop from, anything you want with the integrated ACL base drawings, except making money from them. Gregg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregg MacPherson Posted April 14, 2022 Author Share Posted April 14, 2022 This is the earlier 19mm rod version with a machined casting for the base. I thought it would be useful to have 19mm rods to allow stronger, stiffer support for large telephoto lenses, and a very stiff, steady platform to experiment with in camera mattes. And use the rod mount base to allow integrated handles, shoulder pad and battery mounting. Having continuous rods to the rear increases the overall strength. You might see that there is a small conflict with the connector protruding from the base, affecting the rod if it is continuous to the rear as shown. Offsetting the rod position a couple of mm would help, but is unappealing. Rods going only forward is possible if the rod mount is a bit longer. Other workarounds are possible. It should be possible to make the base with a flat plate and some Chinese 19mm rod clamps. Gregg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregg MacPherson Posted August 28, 2023 Author Share Posted August 28, 2023 The ideas for this were updated recently to include off the shelf handle sets fixed with rosettes (to the same rod base made from C section aluminum), and V-lock battery/mount (with regulator). There was a ver with a single battery rod. I found an example regulated V-lock mount, which may be ok, or one may have to add a regulator. Regulated V-lock mount...$85 on Amazon.https://www.amazon.com/HEDBOX-UNIX-12V-V-Lock-Adapter-BREAKWAY/dp/B07JYG96DW 2x95Wh V-lock Li-Ion batts with charger...$285.https://www.dandolighting.com/products/two-95wh-sony-v-mount-lithium-ion-broadcast-battery-d-tap-connector-dual-d-tap-charger Gregg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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