Black Swan deceived Oscars?

[Brian Rose]

Or because they are FICTIONAL. This is a work of FICTION. Make-believe, fantasy, whatever. It doesn't matter how much dancing Natalie Portman actually did any more than it matters that Tom Hanks did not actually go into space for "Apollo 13." I'm about to do a movie about an alcoholic -- does our actor have to actually get drunk for the movie or can he pretend to be drunk? He makes love to a woman in the movie -- does he actually have to have real sex with her or can he pretend to?

 

You make a good point, but I don't think the claims about Black Swan are entirely without merit. We're not talking about someone pretending, which as you point out is the fundamental of acting: to pretend to be someone else, to do something in a convincing way. The issue here is that there is question over how much of Portman's performance is her own, and how much is that of her body double with Portman's face digitally inserted. In a way, it's like the debate over Avatar, and the question of when digital manipulation is involved, how much of what remains is the performance, and how much is the manipulation, and how is recognition meted out? I don't think anyone here expects Portman to give back her Oscar. She deserves it. But the woman who doubled for her, I think, deserves a little more recognition than to be buried in the list as a "stunt double." She contributed in a very real way to Portman's performance, and yet I don't think she was even thanked in Portman's speech...

[Joseph Arch]

Or because they are FICTIONAL. This is a work of FICTION. Make-believe, fantasy, whatever. It doesn't matter how much dancing Natalie Portman actually did any more than it matters that Tom Hanks did not actually go into space for "Apollo 13." I'm about to do a movie about an alcoholic -- does our actor have to actually get drunk for the movie or can he pretend to be drunk? He makes love to a woman in the movie -- does he actually have to have real sex with her or can he pretend to?

 

 

We are not debating the story of fact nor fiction.

 

It does matter how much dancing she did because if it's 5% then she should not have won the Oscar because then they believe she did it all her self from 1 year of training. That is very close plagiarism.

 

Technically Tom Hanks cannot go into space. That view of argument does not work.

 

If he likes to get drunk then it would help his role as a dedicated drunk actor.

 

I am sure he would like to have sex with her, that's dedication, but unfortunately he cannot.

 

Seriously, if you are going to defend dishonesty at least make strong claims.

[David Mullen ASC]

When you are talking about an actor playing a fictional character doing fictional things, the whole notion of honesty is ridiculous. It's like the Laurence Olivier comment that the most important quality for an actor to have is sincerity... because if they can fake that, they can fake anything. It doesn't matter whether Natalie Portman did 5% of the dancing, or only danced in her close-ups anymore than it matters that Audrey Hepburn did none of her singing for "My Fair Lady" or that Gary Sinese didn't actually lose his legs for "Forrest Gump."

 

The fact that Natalie Portman isn't as good a dancer as a professional dancer matters as much as whether an actor playing a brain surgeon can actually perform brain surgery. Now if nobody believed that her character was a professional dancer then THAT would have been a failure of acting, but the question of how much of her dancing had to be faked by someone else is just a technicality. Movies are fake. If I do a talking dog movie, I don't have to find a talking dog. If I do a movie about a professional pianist, how much I can use the real actor's piano playing versus how much I have to rely on a double, how much I have to fake with visual effects, is just a technical challenge, all that matters is whether you believe the character is playing the piano in the movie. If you have to believe that the real actor is an actual piano player in real life, you're missing to whole point of a work of fiction, that's merely a triviality.

 

Look, early articles like in AC about the making of "Black Swan" stated up front that a body double was used, that digital face replacement was employed, etc. so there was no deception at work, otherwise the studio would have never let those articles get published. When I saw the movie, I didn't think about when Portman was dancing versus a double or when effects were being employed, I just watched the movie. My opinion about her acting skills in the movie was not based on my critique of her dancing, because I'm not a professional dance critic, and neither are most viewers. What mattered is whether she portrayed a woman having a psychotic breakdown in a compelling manner or not; she could have been any number of other professional characters, it just happened to be a ballet dancer in his case.

 

if you didn't like the movie, that's fine, but to drag this whole issue of honesty into the mix is unnecessary, as if those of us who don't care how much actual dancing she did in the movie are amoral people who condone dishonesty. I can't take seriously the notion that an actor "lied" to me by portraying a fictional character. I'm supposed to believe that all actors are actually their characters in real life?

[Damien Andre]

the article says she was credited as stunt double, i dont understand what the issue is. sure 'stunt double' is a little odd but she got as much credit as any other double would have.

[Joseph Arch]

Well David, I was brought up in a different culture where hiding the truth is frowned upon. Unlike the west which is more tolerant towards works that go uncredited. I read articles that stated Natalie trained for 1 year to portray her part accurately which gave the impression she did almost everything. To me that is dishonest information from producers to fix her up with an Oscar. Without that lady, Natalie would not have won an Oscar because she would not have been able to do 95% of it. Now, had they mentioned that she did 5% of stunts and equally credited the other lady from the beginning then I would have accepted most of what you have said.

Edited March 28, 2011 by Joseph Arch

[Tom Jensen]

At least she got a credit. Marine Jahan got no such credit and she did most of the dancing in Flashdance.

[John Sprung]

It's like the Laurence Olivier comment that the most important quality for an actor to have is sincerity... because if they can fake that, they can fake anything.

 

I've also heard that line attributed to George Burns.

 

 

 

 

 

-- J.S.

[Guest]

I was brought up in a different culture where hiding the truth is frowned upon. Unlike the west which is more tolerant towards works that go uncredited.

 

Curious, what culture would that be exactly?

 

R,

[Elias Luna]

Really hard to take you serious when your critique of the movie is that it is a stupid story and story cinematography...I wonder what constitutes stupid cinematography...I wish I had something clever to say but at the moment it's not even worth it.

[Mike Lary]

I read articles that stated Natalie trained for 1 year to portray her part accurately which gave the impression she did almost everything. To me that is dishonest information from producers to fix her up with an Oscar.

 

I didn't watch the Oscars presentation. Did Portman win the award for Best Ballet Dance in a Feature Film?

[Francesco Bonomo]

Without that lady, Natalie would not have won an Oscar because she would not have been able to do 95% of it.

 

There's a scene in the film when Portman's character is in the bathroom and calls her mother on the phone and tells her about getting the main "role" in swan lake. It's a close-up shot, and it probably lasts less than 2 minutes. Portman delivers her lines crying, mixing all sorts of emotions the character is experiencing, from the greatest joy to pure desperation, it's all there. I don't really care if she didn't dance "for real" in the movie, or if someone wants their 5 minutes of fame by pointing out something obvious (the use of doubles is as old as filmmaking).

Her terrific performance was much more than just pretending to dance.

[Nigel Smith]

I read articles that stated Natalie trained for 1 year to portray her part accurately which gave ME the impression she did almost everything. To me that is dishonest information from producers to fix her up with an Oscar.

Added in the important word you forgot in your post ;)

 

The AC article specifically states "For wider shots we could just use her dance double". It also talks about how to do a "Texas switch" with Natalie and her double. I don't see any dishonest information there.

[Joseph Arch]

Thank you all for your input.

[Tom Sykes]

Without that lady, Natalie would not have won an Oscar because she would not have been able to do 95% of it.

 

but 95% of the film isn't about Ballet, I know you were talking about 95% of the ballet dancing not being Portman herself, but i'm quite certain she didn't win the Oscar for her dancing in the first place. That's like saying Pan's Labyrinth shouldn't have won an Oscar for cinematography because a lot of the film relied on green screen. I'm pretty sure the VFX guys didn't get as much praise as Guillermo Navarro.

 

The 'acting' was decent, she therefore was praised for it, the amount of ballet is minimal compared to the amount of acting she did.

[Matt Pacini]

Well David, I disagree with you.

I would agree with you IF we were just talking about the movie-going public passively thinking she did all the dancing.

 

The issue here is, a deliberate and calculated move to intentionally deceive everyone into thinking Natalie Portman is not only a good actress, but some sort of dancing savant as well, and hyping that to increase her chances of getting an Oscar - and it worked.

 

They took this woman out of the credits! That has a direct effect on her livelihood from here on out.

 

How would you feel if you were taken out of the credits, and the director on a film you shot started saying in interviews: "oh yeah, I was the DP on this film, and I did the camerawork as well", and then WON AN ACADEMY AWARD FOR CINEMATOGRAPHY FOR THE FILM!!!

 

That's a closer approximation to what happened here, and I think in that case, I'm pretty sure you would think it was a big deal.

 

 

Matt Pacini

[Guest]

Responding to claims that Black Swan star Natalie Portman didn’t do the majority of her on-screen dancing in her Oscar-winning role, director Darren Aronofsky released the following statement through studio Fox Searchlight:

 

“Here is the reality. I had my editor count shots. There are 139 dance shots in the film. 111 are Natalie Portman untouched. 28 are her dance double Sarah Lane. If you do the math that’s 80% Natalie Portman. What about duration? The shots that feature the double are wide shots and rarely play for longer than one second. There are two complicated longer dance sequences that we used face replacement. »

[Hal Smith]

Can I assume a few contributors to this thread have heard of Marni Nixon?

 

Sarah Lane is a soloist with the American Ballet Theatre.

 

Am I the only one here who recognizes that is as great an achievement as winning an Oscar?

 

My Uncle Howard (stage name Alan Howard) was a soloist with the Ballet Russe de Monte Carlo. To this day I run into dancers and balletomanes who remember him and are THRILLED to meet me, the short, stubby engineer, solely because I'm his nephew.

[John Sprung]

.... There are 139 dance shots in the film. 111 are Natalie Portman untouched. 28 are her dance double Sarah Lane....

 

That matches up pretty well with Debbie's assessment of the dancing.... They got most of it wrong.

 

 

 

-- J.S.

[Damien Andre]

Well David, I disagree with you.

I would agree with you IF we were just talking about the movie-going public passively thinking she did all the dancing.

 

The issue here is, a deliberate and calculated move to intentionally deceive everyone into thinking Natalie Portman is not only a good actress, but some sort of dancing savant as well, and hyping that to increase her chances of getting an Oscar - and it worked.

 

They took this woman out of the credits! That has a direct effect on her livelihood from here on out.

 

How would you feel if you were taken out of the credits, and the director on a film you shot started saying in interviews: "oh yeah, I was the DP on this film, and I did the camerawork as well", and then WON AN ACADEMY AWARD FOR CINEMATOGRAPHY FOR THE FILM!!!

 

That's a closer approximation to what happened here, and I think in that case, I'm pretty sure you would think it was a big deal.

 

 

Matt Pacini

but...she was credited and i dont remember any ads or anything that outright said natalie portman did all the dancing. also what would anybody have to gain by decieving people? they give actors awards for acting not performing stunts or dancing

[Guest]

Well they say there are no bad actors, only bad directors.

 

So just give all the acting awards to the directors and be done with it. ;)

 

R,

[David Mullen ASC]

First of all, she got an Oscar for acting, not her dancing. Second, she did not spend 100% of her time in the movie dancing. Third her double got a credit and its not the same as a DP not getting credit and then someone else getting the Oscar for Best Cinematography, and Portman did not win an Oscar for someone else's acting. Fourth this was not a documentary about dancing. Fifth the fact that a double was used was published in articles at the time of the release. Sixth, this whole discussion shows that some people take awards far too seriously as if they were meant to be some sort of objective evaluation of the value of something, and for some reason rather than chalk up Portman's win to just the opinion of some Academy voters, they have to bring in a conspiracy theory to explain why a movie they didn't like won some awards.

[Mike Lary]

Sixth, this whole discussion shows that some people take awards far too seriously as if they were meant to be some sort of objective evaluation of the value of something, and for some reason rather than chalk up Portman's win to just the opinion of some Academy voters, they have to bring in a conspiracy theory to explain why a movie they didn't like won some awards.

 

And if they truly believe that an acting Oscar can be won by lying about factors outside of the judging criteria, they must also believe that the awards system is flawed - in which case moral outrage is nonsensical because the awards themselves would be meaningless.

[David Mullen ASC]

Some people just didn't like the movie or Portman's performance in it, or both, and are just using this controversy as a way of beating up on her, and it's both silly and ugly at the same time.

 

I read about the use of the double and the digital face replacement work in magazine articles before I saw the movie, and I saw the movie within the first two weeks of its release, so now, months later, I'm dumfounded by this notion that the public wasn't told about the use of the double, that they were deceived somehow. And now the director is just recomfirming what was said at the time of the movie's release, so I'm sure he's dumbfounded as well.

 

As for emphasizing what the actors did and de-emphasizing the amount of technical tricks involved, which are more or less standard operating procedure when making a movie, that's why it's called show business.

 

Look, I'm an Academy voter, most of you here are not, so you didn't get to vote for her Oscar one way or the other, so most of you can't make claims of being "cheated" into voting for her since you couldn't anyway.

[Brian Drysdale]

Look, I'm an Academy voter, most of you here are not, so you didn't get to vote for her Oscar one way or the other, so most of you can't make claims of being "cheated" into voting for her since you couldn't anyway.

 

Academy voters are also more likely to be aware of the techniques used than the general public, so can make their judgement knowing that a dance double was used.

 

IMDB has it listed as a drama mystery thriller, so it's not pretending to be a straight film about ballet.

[Brian Drysdale]

Mila Kunis. Portman's co star in Black Swan, doesn't look anything like Meg Griffin in Family Guy, it's about telling a story. In the end, perhaps "dance double" would be better than "stunt double", but details like this would be in the contract and would be negotiated in advance. Musicals are full of stars who's voice was replaced, Audrey Hepburn was famously annoyed about them not using her singing in "My Fair Lady".