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Mitch Gross

Kinetta

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The camera will use Altasens CMOS and the manufacturer delayed this chip's introduction.

 

Pete

The camera is actually chip agnostic and can use anything that comes out up to 4k res. So if another manufacturer makes a different better chip available first then the Kinetta can be made available with this. And if you buy the camera configured with one chip set and then something better comes along, you can have it retrofitted to a new chipset and drivers. No one else has ever made this an option before.

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Guest Pete Wright

Mitch,

 

That's good. In the past they always wanted to sell you a whole new camera. I hope it puts some pressure on the Sonys, Matsushitas and the like.

 

I just wonder if the lens mount is large enough so it would accomodate 35 mm sized chips/lenses?

 

I know that JVC, Ikegami, and so forth are waiting on these Altasens chips. Are they so special? I know that they'll do 1080/60p. Are't there any good CCD's like that? Isn't Sony supposed to have some new 1080/60p camera?

 

Pete

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Hi,

 

> The camera is actually chip agnostic and can use anything that comes out up to

> 4k res

 

Aw c'mon this is such a complete bunch of...

 

Different CCDs need different drive electronics and different ADC configurations. Different frame sizes and rates require different digital-side firmware. So, in that they're probably capable of building a completely different camera and putting in in the same case, sure, they're "sensor agnostic." Otherwise - grow up, guys, and stop pretending it's a film camera whereby you can swap stocks!

 

Phil

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Guest Pete Wright

Hi everybody,

 

Interesting. So actually the case is electronics agnostic, but that would not sell well, so they call it chip agnostic.

 

The problem is that if you invest in the camera, and lenses, and magazines, and you'd want to upgrade to 4K, the lenses will not be sharp enough; the magazines will be good for only 1/4 recording time at 4K, and there will be bunch of new cameras around.

 

Maybe selling the camera and buying a new one may be better than rebuilding the old camera.

 

Pete

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From what I understand, the chips are on a daughtercard, that's what houses all the chip-specific stuff, so it's like doing a processor upgrade in a Mac G4, you simply swap out the daughter card for a faster pair of chips. Sure your lenses might not be good enough for the higher res, but you will have better chips :)

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Jason is esentially correct. Certainly there is more to it then just swapping the chips, but the vast majority of the camera remains the same. I'm sure it would constitute a large investment to change the chipset, but it would be dramatically less than the cost of replacing the entire camera.

 

The lens mount is the standard cine PL mount, which can handle various 16mm and 35mm format lenses. You could start out with some terrific lenses on there no matter what. Or you could stick some ancient crappy ones if that's you bend.

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Hi,

 

I still maintain that "sensor agnostic" is a bit of marketing-speak. All they're really saying is that they're planning to design their future cameras around the same case and recorder.

 

Phil

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The lens mount is the standard cine PL mount, which can handle various 16mm and 35mm format lenses. You could start out with some terrific lenses on there no matter what. Or you could stick some ancient crappy ones if that's you bend.

And the ancient crappy ones will look better @ 4K than 2K I bet you.

 

(assuming they cover of course).

 

-Sam

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When I first heard of the "chip agnostic" nature of the camera my thought went to how hard PC manufacturers would always compare PC's to Macs by saying PC's were upgradable and Mac's were not. Being someone who had to use both this drove me crazy because the fact of the matter was... you could do things like bigger hard drives, more ram, in either - but if you wanted a new processor in your PC (and you wanted it to run smoothly still), you almost always needed to upgrade the powersupply, or the motherboard, or both... and whatever components were tied to them - essentially - you could keep the case which was just about the cheapest thing in the whole deal.

 

Now, with cameras, the lenses are a big deal and the drive and mechanism on this particular camera is a big deal. So... it seems like the chip agnostic means that you basically only need to replace one third of your camera. Better than a PC upgrade, not as good as adding RAM. :)

 

 

All I know is that I'm shooting a movie at the end of this year which is on a budget - and as the date gets closer and closer (Late November) I become more and more curious if any of the new disk based cameras will be ready by that time - AND if they will be the above a certain standard of quality. Which keeps me waiting for some full rez sample files... waiting waiting waiting.

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Guest Pete Wright

Kinetta will start a whole new trend in camera design with hard drives instead of tape. While Sony is perfecting some heavy tape drive, panasonic may come out with a better solution that records to hard drives. I don't believe that they will stay with 720p and flash memory, which is what they showed at NAB.

 

Hopefully some real competition develops soon and the following will happen:

 

Overpriced HD structure will crubble. I'm sure that it does not cost Sony more money to make F900 than Panasonic to make Varicam. And if a lot of Varicam quality cameras were made, with less features, Panasonic could sell them for 10x lower price and still make profit.

 

HDV will hopefully become absolete for pro production before it is introduced. Who needs up to 22.5x compressed Sony or 17.5x compressed $40,000 (with lens) JVC camera.

 

Pete

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Guest Pete Wright

Hi,

 

just got a call, will be working on a movie, will not have much time. Have a great discussion on the future of HD.

 

Pete

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I don't know anything but I just get the feeling this Kinetta thing will not be around in a couple of years. Just a vibe I'm picking up.

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Guest Frank Miller

The Kinetta is an excellent concept. It will use the Rockwell Alta Sens chip. As soon as the chip starts shipping there will be a lot less expensive solutions than the Kinatta, but less convenient.

 

Frank

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Around mid April when NAB 2004 was afoot, Kinetta said they would have a camera for sales in six months. There was a forum member who offered to pay full price and if they were late, they would discount his purchase... is that correct? So, is it in October that you start getting your discount?

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After this camera leaves the prototype stage will it at some point undergo an asthetic redesign? I'm still wondering if this is just a hoax, why is it designed like a beer mug with a lens? Does it even accept rails and a follow focus?

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The camera can take all sorts of accessories using a special clip-on base. The designers wanted to keep the form simple and modular. Jeff Krienes of Kinetta announced this week on the CML that there will be a dozen or so Beta-test prototypes out in 2004 and the production model would be available for purchase or rental in early 2005. Don't recall exactly how this times with Geoff Boyle's challenge but that's between them. It most certainly is not a fantasy product.

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Is it just me... or does that camera look REALLY WEIRD?

Oh well. I guess as long as it serves it purpose....

Ha! If you think that's weird, you'll find the hand crank bizarre. I'm pulling for Jeff Kreines -- I think what he's doing is phenomenal, and I hope he sells a lot of Kinettas. But, as with all high-end film equipment, buying one will be a major financial commitment. Cheaper solutions, rumored on other forums, will be little more than high-def webcams -- that is, they will be tethered to PCs. Maybe in a few years, when the µcard (the new solid-state storage standard to be marketed next year by a Taiwanese consortium) reaches its 2-TB theoretical capacity, will there be a practical, relatively cheap, self-contained alternative to the Kinetta.

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Hi,

 

> The camera was designed by a guy who spent his life shooting handheld 16mm

> mostly, so it was designed to be well-balanced on one's shoulder.

 

Oh the searing irony. Handheld 16mm, eh? The only 16mm camera I've ever handheld required you to more or less have a 3/8 Whitworth thread tapped into your shoulder. Quite a hideous experience when you're used to ergonomically-designed ENG cameras.

 

I could go on being snide, but really it's obvious that the most comfortable shoulder-mount shape for a camera is the classic Betacam layout - but oh, God, we couldn't possibly make it look like one of THOSE could we! The horror!

 

Having handled a Kinetta I can confirm that it's about as easy to handhold as an XL1, for what it's worth, ergo not very.

 

Phil

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Would someone care to explain to me how a handcrank on a digital camera works?

Conceptually, it works the same way it worked on the old hand-cranked cameras of the silent era: the faster you crank, the higher the frame rate (up to 60p). The Kinetta, however, has two options: (1) "Cine Mode," wherein, as on those cameras, exposure varies inversely with the frame rate, producing a flicker; and (2) "Ramp Mode," wherein exposure remains constant.

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Well I would take hand holding an Aaton or 16SR over any Betacam fwiw.

 

Then again I have used them and various Betacams so my opinion might be irrelevant.

 

-Sam B)

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The camera can take all sorts of accessories using a special clip-on base.  The designers wanted to keep the form simple and modular. 

Ah-ha, I new there had to be something. I totaly agree with the philosophy behind the camera, it just looks a bit cobbled together to me. As always the proof will be in the image.

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Hi,

 

> Well I would take hand holding an Aaton or 16SR over any Betacam fwiw.

 

Gyah, why? Film cameras, with the trivial exception of the Arri S, always seem like they're rather out of place being handheld. They're largely square and made of punishingly unforgiving metal; the laughable little bolt-on grips people seem to use always seem hopelessly inadequate to me. It doesn't hurt a Betacam to be built for shoulder work when it's on sticks, but a film camera on your shoulder will certainly hurt you, which I think is the point.

 

Discussions like this always recall the moment at Panavision when I pointed out that their extension viewfinder made it impossible to reach the lens. "But you have someone else to focus," they said. "No, I don't," I said. "You are an idiot," they said, or words to that effect.

 

Phil

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