Any advice on which Super 16 camera to buy?

[Johnny Liu]

I am interested in buying a 16mm camera that is either already Super 16 - or convertible to Super 16 - and has these features:

• Has crystal sync for 24fps or there exists some kind of add-on for this
• Quiet - or can be made fairly quiet via barney blimp or some other add-on or modification
• Very steady image
• Not too expensive (but may just have to face reality that all these features don't exist on a camera that can be bought for not too much money)

I could save my money for something more expensive, but that would take 1-2 years at least.  I would be open to something less expensive in the short run and be willing to accept some annoyances.  I am good with fixing things and good with basic electronics troubleshooting and repair (e.g. circuit boards), so would also like to add this one other request:

• I might be able to conceivably repair/service my camera myself

Any ideas?  I guess I am looking for a Super 16 camera that has crystal sync, quiet, and like an old VW where one can repair it.  My initial thought was a CP-16R.  What do you think?

 

[Brian Drysdale]

The CP16R will do the job, although you'll need to have a camera that has been converted to Super 16, or be willing to get the conversion done. The weakness is the electronics, which you should check out before purchase, since repair doesn't seem to be an option with these.

[Johnny Liu]

One other feature I am interested in (sorry, am no longer able to edit my original post) is:
 

• Video assist tap - or there exists some kind of add-on or modification to add one
   

But - and please educate me - how useful is a video assist tap?  My main interest in having one is to check that the focus is good/sharp.  If, in a real situation, that would be hard to see on a video screen on set, let me know because I don't have experience with this feature.

 

Edited February 22 by Johnny Liu

[Robin Phillips]

can you give us an idea of your budget and how you will use the camera?

[Brian Drysdale]

There is an option to fit a video assist, but the quality isn't really good enough to check focus unless you have a modern camera fitted, even then you may have difficulty, since the CP16R doesn't have a fibre optic viewfinder of the same quality as say an Aaton or Arri 16SR. It's of more use for judging performances and framing than the focus.

[Johnny Liu]

1 hour ago, Robin Phillips said:

can you give us an idea of your budget and how you will use the camera?

If it was today or a couple months from now, I would say my budget for a camera (no lenses) would be up to $4000.

My thought is that I would like to make some kind of production (still figuring it out) that would have enough picture quality to be able to appear on streaming services - and (big dream) - perhaps even theatrical release.  I know I probably can't get more vague than that, but thanks.

 

[Johnny Liu]

1 hour ago, Brian Drysdale said:

There is an option to fit a video assist, but the quality isn't really good enough to check focus unless you have a modern camera fitted, even then you may have difficulty, since the CP16R doesn't have a fibre optic viewfinder of the same quality as say an Aaton or Arri 16SR. It's of more use for judging performances and framing than the focus.

Thanks for the insight into this.  In practical use, does a DP actually use the video assist to check focus a lot or that is just too time consuming?

 

[Victoria Sagady]

Just for awareness most of the higher end cameras with the features you want are going for 15-20k so you are a ways off.  Best path might be trying to get an old SR2 or Aaton that has not been converted and paying for a conversion to super or ultra 16.  Its a tough market.

[Johnny Liu]

10 minutes ago, Victoria Sagady said:

Just for awareness most of the higher end cameras with the features you want are going for 15-20k so you are a ways off.  Best path might be trying to get an old SR2 or Aaton that has not been converted and paying for a conversion to super or ultra 16.  Its a tough market.

Thanks for the advice.  I might have to aim more for an older SR2 or Aaton, yeah

[Robin Phillips]

59 minutes ago, Johnny Liu said:

If it was today or a couple months from now, I would say my budget for a camera (no lenses) would be up to $4000.

My thought is that I would like to make some kind of production (still figuring it out) that would have enough picture quality to be able to appear on streaming services - and (big dream) - perhaps even theatrical release.  I know I probably can't get more vague than that, but thanks.

 

I am not sure you'll be able to get a super 16 camera for that price that isnt a bolex, and even then it might be tricky. I would not count on being able to convert any regular 16 cameras to super 16 btw, and ultra 16 can be a bad idea (its not a professional format, and can result in weird flares or issues with some scanners). Conversions are labor intensive and the parts are generally not available. but if you had the parts, you might easily be spending another 5 grand just on a conversion. 

TBH I would not be willing to use anything older than an SR3 or maybe an aaton XTR for anything going somewhere big. you want the image stability of later cameras, along with a PL mount. you also want the ability to have the camera repaired fairly quickly and easily. its even getting hard to get some spare parts for the later arri and aaton cameras now, its much worse for older ones. In a professional shooting environment I'd very much be wanting to rent rather than use a film camera thats pre 1990. To buy, those cameras are going for a good $20k+ right now. Keep in mind you need to have a resource that can service and maintain your camera, as they are not like digital cameras. you've got parts that can wear down, things that need ocasional greasing etc.

As for your video assist questions, a 1080p low latency HD tap can be used to check focus, but that is dependent on knowing that everything is dialed in correctly - flange depth, lenses, ground glass, and tap mount. If you are using an older camera, the amount of light getting to the tap might not be great and thus may only be so useful. Generally on film, if you know your lens mount and lenses are dialed in, measuring with a measuring tape or laser is the way to do focus. But if everything is dialed in and you dont have a tap camera with latency issues you can operate off the video tap if need be. 

Im not trying to be down on your goals, but you definitely dont want to get into a money pit of an old camera that winds up costing thousands more than you anticipated. 

[Johnny Liu]

5 hours ago, Robin Phillips said:

I am not sure you'll be able to get a super 16 camera for that price that isnt a bolex, and even then it might be tricky. I would not count on being able to convert any regular 16 cameras to super 16 btw, and ultra 16 can be a bad idea (its not a professional format, and can result in weird flares or issues with some scanners). Conversions are labor intensive and the parts are generally not available. but if you had the parts, you might easily be spending another 5 grand just on a conversion. 

TBH I would not be willing to use anything older than an SR3 or maybe an aaton XTR for anything going somewhere big. you want the image stability of later cameras, along with a PL mount. you also want the ability to have the camera repaired fairly quickly and easily. its even getting hard to get some spare parts for the later arri and aaton cameras now, its much worse for older ones. In a professional shooting environment I'd very much be wanting to rent rather than use a film camera thats pre 1990. To buy, those cameras are going for a good $20k+ right now. Keep in mind you need to have a resource that can service and maintain your camera, as they are not like digital cameras. you've got parts that can wear down, things that need ocasional greasing etc.

As for your video assist questions, a 1080p low latency HD tap can be used to check focus, but that is dependent on knowing that everything is dialed in correctly - flange depth, lenses, ground glass, and tap mount. If you are using an older camera, the amount of light getting to the tap might not be great and thus may only be so useful. Generally on film, if you know your lens mount and lenses are dialed in, measuring with a measuring tape or laser is the way to do focus. But if everything is dialed in and you dont have a tap camera with latency issues you can operate off the video tap if need be. 

Im not trying to be down on your goals, but you definitely dont want to get into a money pit of an old camera that winds up costing thousands more than you anticipated. 

Thanks for your detailed opinion.  Yeah, I might have to just save up more money and get something more modern ($$$).  Either that or re-think my goals...
 

[Dom Jaeger]

Visual Products has a S16 CP16R currently for sale for about 9K, complete with PL mount, zoom and HD tap. That's about as good a deal as you'll get for what you want. 

https://visualproducts.com/product/cp-16r-super16-camera-package/

Edited February 23 by Dom Jaeger

[Johnny Liu]

40 minutes ago, Dom Jaeger said:

Visual Products has a S16 CP16R currently for sale for about 9K, complete with PL mount, zoom and HD tap. That's about as good a deal as you'll get for what you want. 

https://visualproducts.com/product/cp-16r-super16-camera-package/

Yeah, I've been eyeing that one.  Do you have a CP-16?  And even if you don't, do you think that's a good deal/price for what they are offering in that package?

Also, do you know where I might be able to find used CP-16s?  Like for example make friends with anyone who's uncle or father used to be a news cameraman in the '60s or '70s, etc. Haha

[Tyler Purcell]

As Robin said above, currently there is no Super 16 camera that fits your specs, which is anywhere near $4k. 

Currently the market is very hot still. People are getting top dollars for cameras a decade ago, wouldn't sell for $3k. I do feel this will change over time, so maybe the time you're ready to buy (1-2 years) things will be different? I highly doubt you'd ever get anyone to sell a good (Arri/Aaton) Super 16 camera for anywhere near $4k however. So you need to look at options to get ya started. 

Another very important aspect to "super 16" are the lenses. Standard 16mm lenses today, are pretty inexpensive. Super 16mm lenses are kinda overly priced in a lot of ways. Standard 16mm is a MUCH cheaper option, in fact I recently started shooting a mix of standard and super on my films and NOBODY can tell the difference. Which begs the question, do you NEED super 16? 

Sadly, there isn't a camera that's really self service. Every one of them needs a tune up by a tech and that's becoming harder and harder to find these days for the non-standard (Arri/Aaton/Bolex/Beaulieu) cameras. I specialize in Aaton cameras and can fix "some" problems with other cameras, but not all problems. Parts are nearly impossible to get for everything outside of the latest and greatest Arri 416. So you've gotta treat whatever you get with kid gloves. 

So what to buy? It's down to the deal you get honestly. If you can find a recently re-build Arri SR standard 16mm with a basic Zeiss 11-110 B mount Zoom, that's a really good starter kit. Maybe send it out to get a tap installed. Get a V mount battery adaptor. Just start shooting with it. Don't worry about the tiny bit extra real estate on the image, focus on shooting film. Bigger and better cameras always exist, but if you do bigger shows, just rent since you're in Los Angeles. 

I'd stay away from the CP's, Eclairs and older Aaton LTR's. Where each of them have their "good" things, none of them are really where you want to begin ya know? Some LTR's which have been converted to PL and have the base/motor upgraded, can be decent cameras. But people charge WAY too much for them. For a few grand it's worth the risk, but not for the kind of pricing I'm seeing. Aaton only had Aaton mount at the time, which requires adaptors for Arri B and then you're stuck to finding Super 16 Arri B lenses, which can be tricky, not impossible, but MORE tricky than just focusing on standard lenses. 

Another camera to put on your $4k budget radar is the Beaulieu 2016. Super hard to come by, only see them every two or three years for sale, but when you do, they're pretty good. Standard 16mm, but C mount lens, crystal speeds, and a great beginner camera with integrated light meter and up to 80fps over cranking. I use my 2016 A LOT. In fact, my main camera case contains a 6008 Super 8 and 2016 16mm, that's what I bring everywhere. Lots of different lenses, lots of cool bits and bobs, but generally speaking, I don't bring out my Aaton kit for anything but professional jobs. I think it's just too much of a risk when it's so hard to get parts and costly to get things fixed when broken. At least cameras like the Bolex EL and Beaulieu 2016, aren't horribly expensive as standard 16mm cameras. It's not the end of the world to invest in a 100ft daylight spool camera unless you're recording sync sound, which a lot of people doing 16mm projects, aren't. If your job is going to be narratives only, well... my advice earlier about the Arri SR, maybe the best way to go. 

Sadly tho, at the moment, all of the cameras you seek specification wise, are WAY out of your budget and again, I fret that won't change anytime soon. 

 

[Dom Jaeger]

47 minutes ago, Johnny Liu said:

Yeah, I've been eyeing that one.  Do you have a CP-16?  And even if you don't, do you think that's a good deal/price for what they are offering in that package?

Also, do you know where I might be able to find used CP-16s?  Like for example make friends with anyone who's uncle or father used to be a news cameraman in the '60s or '70s, etc. Haha

No, I don't own one, or know much about CP16s really. 

But in terms of what you were asking for that's about as cheap as you'll find for a decent S16 PL mounted camera with HD tap and zoom, fully serviced by a reputable company with very good techs. As Robin said, it's easy to go down the rabbit hole of spending a lot of time and money on old cameras that need repairing, finding accessories that fit, finding lenses (not many good options in CP mount) etc. As far as DIY servicing, film cameras are generally beyond the scope of non-professionals, it's very easy to introduce worse problems than the ones you tried to fix when you don't really know what you're doing. 

Personally I think renting a pro camera and lenses is the way to go if you have a project ready to shoot, and buy something simple like a Bolex to play around with now, no need for S16 really, just crop to get a wider frame. 

[Tyler Purcell]

42 minutes ago, Johnny Liu said:

Yeah, I've been eyeing that one.  Do you have a CP-16?  And even if you don't, do you think that's a good deal/price for what they are offering in that package?

I have owned them before, shot with them a lot and I'm one of the only guys in Los Angeles who services them. 

I think for a few grand, they're a killer deal. The kind of price they're asking, is insanity. I get it tho, they want to amortize the cost of integrating a HD tap and re-building it. But, you can get something a lot better for that kind of price if you ignore the Super 16 "tax" you're paying. A normal CP without super 16 is more like $3k with a lens. 

I do like CP16R's, that's why I service them. I have fond memories of using them as a teenager. I just don't know if you would get any gigs with one, or shoot anything professional. Some people have tried, but they're mostly ultra low horror films and stuff, where the quality is irrelevant. For sure a working SR would give you far crisper images. 
 

42 minutes ago, Johnny Liu said:

Also, do you know where I might be able to find used CP-16s?  Like for example make friends with anyone who's uncle or father used to be a news cameraman in the '60s or '70s, etc. Haha

You don't want one that hasn't been serviced in years. They're a mighty pain in the ass to fix when they're ceased or when the internal batteries have failed and damaged the main board. 

[Aapo Lettinen]

The cp16r is actually pretty ok camera and the mechanics are relatively easy to diy service if only have basic expectations about the end result.

The issue with them is the original electronics which have started detoriating and need difficult repairs.

By my opinion it is wisest to replace the old crystal electronics with newly designed ones to make it reliable. I designed a 1-speed crystal sync update electronics for this camera which I can still make even when was thinking of discontinuing it for low demand. Will finally need some gear ratio information about the 24fps geared camera to complete the software though, otherwise would refuse to sell...

The Eclairs have more active community but they are more difficult and more expensive to repair. And diy repairing the npr may not be possible, it is unnecessarily complicated camera mechanically.

I would not expect the quality from a diy serviced camera to meet streaming service expectations. Would need to go with a rental camera or professionally serviced arri or aaton

[Geffen Avraham]

I'll throw into the ring something no one has suggested, which is why not get a Standard 16 GSMO? They use the same batteries and lenses as CP-16s, but are lighter and have Eclair/Aaton-like mags, and are solidly built.

You can get some on Ebay for $2-3k, pair them with a Zeiss 10-100 and you're good to go. You can get new batteries from Du-All Camera. 

They will not have a PL mount and only someone like Visual Products will be able to install one, for a price. But with a good zoom lens in sharp condition, you won't need it.

[Johnny Liu]

16 hours ago, Dom Jaeger said:

No, I don't own one, or know much about CP16s really. 

But in terms of what you were asking for that's about as cheap as you'll find for a decent S16 PL mounted camera with HD tap and zoom, fully serviced by a reputable company with very good techs. As Robin said, it's easy to go down the rabbit hole of spending a lot of time and money on old cameras that need repairing, finding accessories that fit, finding lenses (not many good options in CP mount) etc. As far as DIY servicing, film cameras are generally beyond the scope of non-professionals, it's very easy to introduce worse problems than the ones you tried to fix when you don't really know what you're doing. 

Personally I think renting a pro camera and lenses is the way to go if you have a project ready to shoot, and buy something simple like a Bolex to play around with now, no need for S16 really, just crop to get a wider frame. 

Thanks for the advice.  Yes, maybe it would make sense for me to rent at the moment.  Still thinking about my choices here...

[Johnny Liu]

16 hours ago, Tyler Purcell said:

I have owned them before, shot with them a lot and I'm one of the only guys in Los Angeles who services them. 

I think for a few grand, they're a killer deal. The kind of price they're asking, is insanity. I get it tho, they want to amortize the cost of integrating a HD tap and re-building it. But, you can get something a lot better for that kind of price if you ignore the Super 16 "tax" you're paying. A normal CP without super 16 is more like $3k with a lens. 

I do like CP16R's, that's why I service them. I have fond memories of using them as a teenager. I just don't know if you would get any gigs with one, or shoot anything professional. Some people have tried, but they're mostly ultra low horror films and stuff, where the quality is irrelevant. For sure a working SR would give you far crisper images. 
 

You don't want one that hasn't been serviced in years. They're a mighty pain in the ass to fix when they're ceased or when the internal batteries have failed and damaged the main board. 

Thanks for the thorough and honest advice - it gives me a point of reference in evaluating the value in that Visual Products package - and also in evaluating CP16s as a viable choice, in general.

 

[Johnny Liu]

13 hours ago, Aapo Lettinen said:

The cp16r is actually pretty ok camera and the mechanics are relatively easy to diy service if only have basic expectations about the end result.

The issue with them is the original electronics which have started detoriating and need difficult repairs.

By my opinion it is wisest to replace the old crystal electronics with newly designed ones to make it reliable. I designed a 1-speed crystal sync update electronics for this camera which I can still make even when was thinking of discontinuing it for low demand. Will finally need some gear ratio information about the 24fps geared camera to complete the software though, otherwise would refuse to sell...

The Eclairs have more active community but they are more difficult and more expensive to repair. And diy repairing the npr may not be possible, it is unnecessarily complicated camera mechanically.

I would not expect the quality from a diy serviced camera to meet streaming service expectations. Would need to go with a rental camera or professionally serviced arri or aaton

Thanks a lot for the analysis and info about the CP16 electronics - and also the info about Eclairs - as well as - the fact that a DIY serviced camera might not be able to turn out professional footage.  Thanks!

[Johnny Liu]

12 hours ago, Geffen Avraham said:

I'll throw into the ring something no one has suggested, which is why not get a Standard 16 GSMO? They use the same batteries and lenses as CP-16s, but are lighter and have Eclair/Aaton-like mags, and are solidly built.

You can get some on Ebay for $2-3k, pair them with a Zeiss 10-100 and you're good to go. You can get new batteries from Du-All Camera. 

They will not have a PL mount and only someone like Visual Products will be able to install one, for a price. But with a good zoom lens in sharp condition, you won't need it.

I have read a little about the GSMO before, but never looked into it much.  From what I can see online, just searching briefly is that parts might be hard to come by.  Do you have any links to any footage shot with a GSMO?  I would be curious to see what film looks like shot with this camera.  Do you know if this camera can be converted to Super 16?  Do you own a GSMO?
 

[Tyler Purcell]

7 minutes ago, Johnny Liu said:

I have read a little about the GSMO before, but never looked into it much.  From what I can see online, just searching briefly is that parts might be hard to come by.  Do you have any links to any footage shot with a GSMO?  I would be curious to see what film looks like shot with this camera.  Do you know if this camera can be converted to Super 16?  Do you own a GSMO?

Unlike digital cameras, film cameras all look the same as the lens and stock are what creates the image, not the camera body itself. The GSMO is also a MUCH harder to find camera. You'd be lucky to find 1 a year on eBay and most people who sell them, want a pretty penny due to their rarity. The other issue with the GSMO is; less parts and less expertise. 

[Johnny Liu]

12 minutes ago, Tyler Purcell said:

Unlike digital cameras, film cameras all look the same as the lens and stock are what creates the image, not the camera body itself. The GSMO is also a MUCH harder to find camera. You'd be lucky to find 1 a year on eBay and most people who sell them, want a pretty penny due to their rarity. The other issue with the GSMO is; less parts and less expertise. 

Do you think a GSMO provides as steady a picture as an Arri SR?  I have thought about other 16 mm cameras like a Bolex or a Beaulieu for the immediate present, but I'm concerned about those cameras because from some footage I see on YouTube I see a bit of unsteadiness in the picture, like sometimes a very slight undulating or wave motion

[Samuel Preston]

3 hours ago, Johnny Liu said:

Do you think a GSMO provides as steady a picture as an Arri SR?  

An Arri SR will have the same slight weaving motion, especially if unserviced/ with a worn gate. But also the older sr’s 1,2 and even 3 non advanced models have a gate that creates a less steady more ‘floating’ or as you described it wave motion image. 
 

My sr3 advanced has a rock steady image with an unnoticeable amount of gate weave, but i’m not sure how an old sr compares directly with a bolex or beaulieu in terms of gate weave.