faulty 16mm scan_ camera or dev/scan issue!?

[david jenewein]

hi there,

 

hope everybody is doing well.

i have a question regarding a project i shot on 16mm kodak 250D Vision3 100ft stock.

unfortunately the film didn't come out well, and i am wondering what this could be!? (pls see screenshots attached).

the project was shot in kasakhstan, on a bolex h16 reflex with rotating turret, using a pl adapter to shoot with a zeiss 11-110mm t2.2.

first of all, i only used bolex models with one lens mount before (e.g. sbm etc), and realised that the rotating turret shouldn't be used for a heavier lens like this.

the turret itself would occasionally just lift a couple of mm right at the mount, depending on how i'd handle the camera.

however, i don't think this is the source of the issue how the film came out.

what really doesn't make sense to me is, that roll 1 came out fine, but then basically from roll 2 till almost the end of roll 7, these lines appear.

but whats really suprising is that the line(s) slowly fade out towards the end!?

i also had roll 6 + 7 pulled by -2 stops as daylight was getting too much.

could this be the reason for the fade out of this line!?

generelly i thought because of the inconsistency of this line,  it couldn't really be a camera issue, but rather a scanning or developing issue!?

but i am not sure what this has been caused by tbh!?

scan and dev has been done by kodak in pinewood.

 

here's what the notes from the lab were:

'Film fogging intermittent down the RHS of frame, this is sometimes also from the RHS of frame - It slightly encroaches on picture.

CR 2 -3 has a flare through out the material on the RHS and LHS of frame

CR3-7 -  Flare down the LHS of frame'

 

curious to hear what anybody would suggest the cause for this could be!

 

thanks

david

Edited October 3, 2024 by david jenewein

[david jenewein]

so basically question is if anybody has an idea where this fault could come from? thx david

[Simon Wyss]

In the first picture I see no line. The film edge got light from loading or whatever.

The line with the second picture makes me wonder about light hitting the film through a small hole somewhere in the camera body or a magazine

The line with the third picture is in the same place but faint.

My suggestions are:

• use a turret model with smaller, lightweight C-mount prime lenses. That’s what the turret is for. A clamp on the turret prevents it from lifting off. A locking screw (red lacquer circle) prevents the turret from rotating. I don’t understand why PL-mount lenses have to be put on an amateur camera. You’re not acting professionally by doing that, on the contrary, it’s against the rule to keep things simple
• use fresh film that was not respooled and if you do nonetheless, make sure you respool yourself
• have the camera and or magazine(s) seen after by a technician
• change lab

[Robert Hart]

Has the black bloop lamp enclosure on the bottom left near the turret been damaged and letting light in? It is possible if the optical viewfinder is not being used aftger set up on a locked off shot while the camera is running, for light to get in through the view pupil of the eyepiece and via the prism, laying a streak of light on the film? My memory is vague but I think there may be a selector lever on the top eyepiece relay tube to move a secondary mirror to exclude light if a human eyeball is not looking through the viewing pupil and thus blocking off any light from getting in. On a CP16R, there was an iris at the viewcup to stop light from getting in through an unattended eyepiece..

[Dom Jaeger]

I second what Simon is saying.

The first image just looks like edge fog from loading or somehow flashing the edge of he film.

The second looks like a hole letting in light, maybe a screw missing in the turret plate or the screw for the top shoe. Carefully check the area around the gate for holes. The intensity of the leak would vary depending on where the sun is shining.

This is why getting a camera serviced and checked before an important shoot is very wise. A little outlay beforehand can prevent an entire shoot that can't be easily re-shot from being ruined.

Later turret models (I think Rex2 and after) were fitted with a turret lock at the top right, which helped prevent heavy zooms from flexing the turret away or bending it. You should also have a bottom port turret locking cap, though this is not effective in preventing the turret from deforming.

[Dirk DeJonghe]

The typical fault we see often with older Bolex cameras is when the filterholder is left out and light can come in via the filterholder slot on the right hand side of the camera, just behind the lens mount.

This would give a vertical fogged area but to the right side of the picture.

In this case you have thinner fogged areas on both left and right. I suspect light coming in from a gap between the camera and turret lens mount. The turret is only meant for light fixed focal lenses, or if you use a zoom lens, you were supposed to lock the turret in place. I believe there was even a dummy lens cover you could screw in to hold the turret locked, there was femail thread in the camera body corresponding to the top lens position for this part.

This is what I remember from owning a Bolex Rex5 with Vario Switar 16-86mm in the late 1960s.

 

 

[david jenewein]

On 10/3/2024 at 9:29 PM, Robert Hart said:

Has the black bloop lamp enclosure on the bottom left near the turret been damaged and letting light in? It is possible if the optical viewfinder is not being used aftger set up on a locked off shot while the camera is running, for light to get in through the view pupil of the eyepiece and via the prism, laying a streak of light on the film? My memory is vague but I think there may be a selector lever on the top eyepiece relay tube to move a secondary mirror to exclude light if a human eyeball is not looking through the viewing pupil and thus blocking off any light from getting in. On a CP16R, there was an iris at the viewcup to stop light from getting in through an unattended eyepiece..

thanks robert for your thoughts. yes there is this lever just behind the eyepiece which blocks light coming in when your eye isn't blocking the viewfinder. however, i've experienced before that quite a few times i would have forgotten about it, and never really made any big difference tbh. i think it potentially just fogs the film but i guess in a quite overall aspect, not so specific with a streak of light

[david jenewein]

12 hours ago, Dirk DeJonghe said:

The typical fault we see often with older Bolex cameras is when the filterholder is left out and light can come in via the filterholder slot on the right hand side of the camera, just behind the lens mount.

This would give a vertical fogged area but to the right side of the picture.

In this case you have thinner fogged areas on both left and right. I suspect light coming in from a gap between the camera and turret lens mount. The turret is only meant for light fixed focal lenses, or if you use a zoom lens, you were supposed to lock the turret in place. I believe there was even a dummy lens cover you could screw in to hold the turret locked, there was femail thread in the camera body corresponding to the top lens position for this part.

This is what I remember from owning a Bolex Rex5 with Vario Switar 16-86mm in the late 1960s.

 

 

hi dirk, thanks for letting me know. i used the filter holder a few time with an nd, but even when no in use actively with a filter, the empty holder was still in there. however, i do very much believe that it definitely has something to do with these parts of the camera. thanks so much

[david jenewein]

thanks for all the replies.

just to clarify the images.

the 1st image is without the line, 2nd image most prominent and 3rd when its just about to fade out.

reading all the comments i think also that it must have come from the turret not being blocked.

thx david

[Dom Jaeger]

3 hours ago, david jenewein said:

reading all the comments i think also that it must have come from the turret not being blocked.

The turret lock would help to prevent focus issues and possible deformation of the turret plate, but it has nothing to do with the light leak. The leak is an intense, narrow line, so it’s caused by a small hole somewhere adjacent to where the film travels. You need to check the camera front for missing screws. 

Light leaking through other areas, like the filter slot, viewfinder or bloop lamp channel, tend to cause more diffuse leaks that fog the film rather than causing this sort of narrow line.

[Dirk DeJonghe]

What I advise for those problems is to get a small LED light that fits into the camera body, light it and sit in a darkroom for 5 minutes to see where light is leaking OUT of the camera.

[Simon Wyss]

8 hours ago, david jenewein said:

1st image is without the line, 2nd image most prominent and 3rd when its just about to fade out.

How long is the line? Could you tell the number of frames perhaps?

[david jenewein]

5 hours ago, Simon Wyss said:

How long is the line? Could you tell the number of frames perhaps?

hey simon, not sure how long the line is exactly. i mean it starts from roll 2 till roll 7 really. so its basically 600ft, haha.... but yeah, intensity changes throughout, becoming less intense towards the end.

so 1st image is from 1st roll, without the issue.

2nd image is from i'd say roughly roll 3

3rd image i think from last roll, which is 7

 

from the scanners:

CR 2 -3 has a flare through out the material on the RHS and LHS of frame

CR3-7 -  Flare down the LHS of frame'

 

X d

 

[Ludwig Hagelstein]

cant be a lab problem - this is unifrom white light, has enough time to fog the entire film evenly in that area - probably a light leak from the front in the camera. 

 

[Robert Hart]

There may be another remote possibility if the camera has been dismantled for repair. It has been a topic of past discussion. From vague memory, there are two seams where the castwork related to the pressure plate and gate fit into the case. I understand that the seams are covered with some sort of jointing material. My older H16 had a light leak which lit a streak onto the film between shots when the film was parked. The seams are exposed between the turret and the removable loading lid.

[Mark Dunn]

30 minutes ago, Robert Hart said:

a light leak which lit a streak onto the film between shots when the film was parked.

So we need to see what happens to the streak in between takes.

[Thom Kuo]

In regards to white line:

On a light array scanner such as Scanity or the old Spirit a speck of dust can get in scan path and cause banding. Request to have a test done where they re-calibrate machine, do a GATE CHECK and queue up to the shots with the issue.

I would rate that as severe banding

[Ludwig Hagelstein]

2 minutes ago, Thom Kuo said:

In regards to white line:

On a light array scanner such as Scanity or the old Spirit a speck of dust can get in scan path and cause banding. Request to have a test done where they re-calibrate machine, do a GATE CHECK and queue up to the shots with the issue.

I would rate that as severe banding

it looks quite atypicial for a dust spec though - it has a halo around it and looks very much like its an exposure, and not a line artifact. 

[Thom Kuo]

If the speck is large enough it will have this issue. Thats why i suggest they gate check and queue to shot.

[Ludwig Hagelstein]

On 10/3/2024 at 11:27 AM, david jenewein said:

hi there,

 

hope everybody is doing well.

i have a question regarding a project i shot on 16mm kodak 250D Vision3 100ft stock.

unfortunately the film didn't come out well, and i am wondering what this could be!? (pls see screenshots attached).

the project was shot in kasakhstan, on a bolex h16 reflex with rotating turret, using a pl adapter to shoot with a zeiss 11-110mm t2.2.

first of all, i only used bolex models with one lens mount before (e.g. sbm etc), and realised that the rotating turret shouldn't be used for a heavier lens like this.

the turret itself would occasionally just lift a couple of mm right at the mount, depending on how i'd handle the camera.

however, i don't think this is the source of the issue how the film came out.

what really doesn't make sense to me is, that roll 1 came out fine, but then basically from roll 2 till almost the end of roll 7, these lines appear.

but whats really suprising is that the line(s) slowly fade out towards the end!?

i also had roll 6 + 7 pulled by -2 stops as daylight was getting too much.

could this be the reason for the fade out of this line!?

generelly i thought because of the inconsistency of this line,  it couldn't really be a camera issue, but rather a scanning or developing issue!?

but i am not sure what this has been caused by tbh!?

scan and dev has been done by kodak in pinewood.

 

here's what the notes from the lab were:

'Film fogging intermittent down the RHS of frame, this is sometimes also from the RHS of frame - It slightly encroaches on picture.

CR 2 -3 has a flare through out the material on the RHS and LHS of frame

CR3-7 -  Flare down the LHS of frame'

 

curious to hear what anybody would suggest the cause for this could be!

 

thanks

david

Do you by chance have the phsysical negative, or could ask the lab to send you a photo of the negative on a light box ?

[Steve Switaj]

This is a weird one. I don't think your light leak is happening at the turret or the gate, and I base that on how smooth and consistent the streak is on the second image.

It crosses three frames and the two frame lines in between quite smoothly and is very even in density.

This hints to me that the leak happened somewhere the film was in continuous motion. 

Around the gate the film is constantly speeding up and slowing down as each frame is exposed. leaks in this area tend to have a pattern that repeats with the frame spacing.

I don't see any info on which model Bolex you're using, but if you're using an external mag, there could be a tiny leak where the body and mag join. The film moves at a smooth, continuous speed in that area.

[david jenewein]

On 10/5/2024 at 10:19 PM, Ludwig Hagelstein said:

Do you by chance have the phsysical negative, or could ask the lab to send you a photo of the negative on a light box ?

thanks ludwig, will ask them x

[david jenewein]

On 10/5/2024 at 10:33 PM, Steve Switaj said:

This is a weird one. I don't think your light leak is happening at the turret or the gate, and I base that on how smooth and consistent the streak is on the second image.

It crosses three frames and the two frame lines in between quite smoothly and is very even in density.

This hints to me that the leak happened somewhere the film was in continuous motion. 

Around the gate the film is constantly speeding up and slowing down as each frame is exposed. leaks in this area tend to have a pattern that repeats with the frame spacing.

I don't see any info on which model Bolex you're using, but if you're using an external mag, there could be a tiny leak where the body and mag join. The film moves at a smooth, continuous speed in that area.

hi steve, thanks for your comment. there wasn't any external mag jus fyi, so must have happened somewhere else then!?

[Dirk DeJonghe]

You also need to check if the fogging gets more intense when the camera stops between takes. Because of longer exposure times, if it is a light leak , the exposed area should be bigger or more exposed compared to the middle of the shot where the camera runs at normal speed.

 

[david jenewein]

i started editing the project, and what i realised, is that the grey line would move slightly from left to right. the exposed image doesn't move though, so the transport of the film seems alright.

i also realised these green spots on the left side of the frame, pls see image attached.

the rental i have the camera from wrote the following.

quote:

Hi David,

 

I just had a conversation with Tony Simpson (camera engineer / Bolex expert).  He thinks it’s highly unlikely to be a camera fault / light leak.  The line is too precisely defined and consistent.  The tiniest pin sized hole would create much more of a mess.

 

He thinks it more likely to be a processing fault (the line being caused by under development).  

 

It’s also worth checking the film batch codes.  If the faulty rolls are from the same batch that would suggest an issue with the stock.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Please keep me posted.

 

-------------

 

like suggested by ludgwig, i requested the film to have a look on a the light box.

 

the bottom image shows an underexposed frame where the line is most prominent obviously.

like mentioned when opening the thread, 1st roll doesn't have this line, and then from 2nd roll onwards till 7th roll this line starts, but transition to almost not noticable towards the end.

 

will check the batch codes too with the supplier.

 

i'll update the post once i know more.

 

thanks

david